9:00 AM PDT Sunday, May 17, 1987

(Sysop Denny) Hi Phil  Looks like you're early today.

(Phil W) hi Denny -- got the log going, and will send to DL0 at the end  I may
  not be watching this one (Tosh) full time

(Larry L) mornin'

(Sysop Denny) Yeah, me too, we should be able to get something.

(Phil W) doing THD edits this am.  TONE..THD upl to DL3 a bit ago.

(Sysop Denny) Hi Larry.

(Larry L) [hi den]

(Phil W) [hi Larry, he says originally!]

(Sysop Denny) Well, I guess we can get started.

(Larry L) [hi pw]

(Sysop Denny) Are you brimming with Q's today, Larry?

(Larry L) can't think of one..  [trying..]

(R Caley) OK  I have a friend who has a Chipmunk and DV/I  He wants to know if
  anyone has constructed a seperate bus or expansion so both can be plugged
  in?

(Sysop Denny) Well,  The only thing I have heard about  is a different cable
  for the DVI  which is a lot easier to use than  the original, and doesn't
  break as easy It was supposedly made by PG Designs. ga Phil

(Phil W) Yes  as Denny says, PG designs has done something along these  lines.
   They have an adapter that allows their RAM bank for the 100 to be used
  with the 'munk.  It may be that you could plug in the DVI instead of their
  bank if you had such a thing I think Doug Pratt is using that configuration
  (PG RAM + Chipmunk) so maybe you should leave a msg to him (and Denny will
  provide his PPN RSN, I'll bet).  [see Denny on the spot!]

(Sysop Denny) rustling papers
  [Doug = 76703,3041]

(R Caley) Thanks

(Sysop Denny) Make sure you ask for the RAM adaptor,  as opposed to their DVI
  extension cable.

(R Caley) Yield

(Sysop Denny) You can't yield unless Larry has a Q. GRIN

(R Caley) Oh!

(Sysop Denny) Or I get the dreaded slides out.

(Larry L) [hhrrmmpphh]

(R Caley) [Phil..is there such a word as MAVENESQUE?]

(Sysop Denny) There must be a playoff game on right now.  Sure, "in the style
  of a maven"

(R Caley) [go Sonics]

(Phil W) [that was last night, and they didn't!]

(Sysop Denny) Boy, I wish Mike Anders would show up, I have some hard-hitting
  questions for him.

(R Caley) Yeah we could do some PCSG bashing.

(Phil W) Right!  I sure missed a chance with Ultrasoft last week!

(Sysop Denny) Wayne, do you have any questions for the "crowd" here?

(WAYNE S.) NO.

(Sysop Denny) (wrong answer) :(
  Ah! Yay! ga RC

(R Caley) Anyone want to hear my imitation of Mike Sanford?

(Phil W) sure.

(Sysop Denny) Ok, ga (I think)

(Phil W) [OTR - off the record]

(R Caley) This [product] is so WONDERFUL you'll say how could I have done
  without it?  Imagine using NO RAM to do all your stuff and be like a
  10,000,000K desktop  all in your Model 100!!!  Send money or Visa...we don't
  care.etc etc.

(Larry L) [who's mike sanford]

(R Caley) Sam Redman's partner

(Sysop Denny) [President of PCSG]  ga Wayne

(WAYNE S.) ok  I downloaded em8sig this morning  and i can't get the program
  to pick up the log in string from the  adrs.do file  The log on works
  because i used it to log in this session.  any ideas?

(Sysop Denny) Wayne, that's a pretty complex program. I'll have to refer you
  to the author, Marvin Miller 75665,2655

(Phil W) Wayne, it would help (with Marv, too) if you tell what it does do
  vs. what it should do.

(WAYNE S.)  i get an error 55  in line 175 message.

(Sysop Denny) I have an idea, did you put a [ in front of the PPN?

(WAYNE S.) no

(Sysop Denny) Ahh! That's it

(WAYNE S.) i copied the example in the em{_ail8.doc file.

(Sysop Denny) It won't find any adrs entry unless it has that character in
  front of the PPN.

(Phil W) Problem is in log onto SIG, is it not -- not in finding the
  recipient of a message.  error 55 means bad file name.  First I'd check line
  175 and see what file name is there.  Could be a glitch in your copy  or
  maybe it's written on the assumption that you have a DOS and the ADRS file
  is on a disk (name = '0:adrs.do') which would not work if you do not have it
  on a disk but all of this is only specualteion, since I have not used that
  program for a while.

(WAYNE S.) ok

(Sysop Denny) I have had an error 55...

(WAYNE S.) i'll look into that as i don't have a disk. thanks.

(Sysop Denny) when using an INSTR instruction  Ok, any more?  Ok, Dave, You
  have any Ultrasoft news for us?

(Dave M., UltraSoft) JUST A RELEASE OF TEXT POWER & DISK POWER & ULTRASCREEN
  FOR THE KYOTRONICS KC-85 IN A FEW WEEKS. A PRESS RELEASE WILL BE MADE WHEN
  THE PROGRAMS ARE COMPLETELY READY FOR SHIPMENT.

(Sysop Denny) Well! That's good news for the Kyo people  The fact that there
  are so few machines hasn't detered you?

(Dave M.) No, since we've been contacted by so many KC-85 users.

(Sysop Denny) Good, I wish other "unnamed vendors" would be so responsive.

(Dave M.) If we could get a decent response from NEC users  We would also do
  the same for the PC-8201.

(Sysop Denny) Well, there are a lot of those out there - the real orphan is
  the Oly M10.

(Phil W) Dave, as I mentioned in an earlier message, one of the big
  shortcomings of Text Power is that you must get new printer drivers from
  Ultrasoft vs. being able to "roll your own" with all the competing (and
  SIG) products.  Have you discussed this with Richard E?  I believe that  not
  being able to build your own drivers on a moments notice (aside from the
  price) is a major problem for a portable computer. Perhaps you should (at
  least) sell a program which will let the user build his own drivers for
  whatever new printer he comes across.  But I really believe that this
  capability should be provided with the original package.

(Dave M.) (speculation) A ROM based product would include  the capability of
  making your own printer driver as well as having built-in support for the
  current most-popular printers.  I remember your comment about German
  characters  (which TEXT POWER can support automatically) if every user has to
  figure out how to do his own customization (especially when the user also
  does not understand BASIC programming), it becomes very complicated. That is
  why we would support (in a ROM based product) the most popular printers, but
  allow folks like yourself to customize their own. However, it is not possible
  in the current product, and like you said, further printer drivers must be
  ordered from ULTRASOFT.

(Phil W) The key word here is "option". Give the user the option of doing it
  himself.  Yours is the only product that does not.  What you would do if
  you had a ROM product is not too meaningful, unless you really have one.
  ALL OTHER PRODUCTS do let the user write his own setup file.  And I am
  certain that it is possible to write a file (a basic program) that will do
  the same for Text Power.  In fact, if I had a copy, I'd disassemble it and
  give it a shot!

(Dave M.) The ROM based product  (as speculation) is certainly  not out of the
  question, since the technology to do so is currently available to ULTRASOFT.
   For the set-up file, what is the smallest one in any of the other text
  formatters (I know that the S/R set-up file is approx 700 bytes, how about
  T-Word?).

(Sysop Denny) [245 byte text file]

(Phil W) As you say, Dave, the technology is available  and, in fact, the ROM
  products (T-WORD & WRITE ROM) are out there now; in the case of TW, the
  config file is a text file you create with the TEXT editor.  But even
  PRN100 (DL2) and LAPWRD (commercial) give you a Basic program to reconfigure
  the printer driver (which is a part of the  CO file, as in Text Power 100).
  Oh well, just wanted to expand on my short earlier message.  I think it
  would help your sales and (frankly) the selling of custom printer drivers is
  not likely to be a profitable activity for Ultra soft (probably just sell
  them at cost).

(Dave M.) The point is very well taken. I believe it would be  to the
  advantage of UltraSoft to bring out it's Text Power in the way you
  mentioned, and perhaps the ROM product would solve it. I know that such  a
  product is currently being seriously considered.

(Sysop Denny) Dave,  It would be a simple matter RIGHT NOW to write a printer
  set up program in basic that would be user friendly and would just modify
  the existing TEXT Power program. All you need is the place where the CTRL
  code are stored. [or dot commands]

(Phil W) BTW---  Dave, For the record, it is excellent that you folks are
  going to provide support to the Kyo 85.  Good going!

(Dave M.) Thank you. We will speak to the author of the program  to see what
  can be done. And we will let you know in the weeks to come about customizing
  your own  Text Power program.

(Phil W) [say hi to Hugo for me!]

(Sysop Denny) Ok, Thanks Dave. You have anything further, Phil?

(Phil W) Nope!

(Dave M.) We will tentatively be releasing an assembler and dis-assembler
  for the KC-85 as well.

(Phil W) IF you release it tentatively, does that mean you  take it back if
  it does not work (grin)? Sorry - couldn't resist!!

(Dave M.) (GRIN)

(Phil W) [hi, Paul -- got any good gossip?]

(Paul Edgerton) NONE TODAY what's happening?

(Phil W) nothing!

(Sysop Denny) Well, we're talking about TEXT Power  but we are finished with
  that Any MIDI news lately?

(Paul E) I've been playing w/ assmbler lately  and I'm frustrated at the lack
  of relative branching I've come to love on the 6502.... no MIDI news yet.

(Sysop Denny) Well, there is a tecnique to do that with the M100, but  it
  takes 16 bytes for each rel branch.

(Dave M.) Non related SIG question  Is tommorow a holiday in the states?  In
  Canada right now.

(Sysop Denny) No, not that I know of.

(Phil W) nope -- week later, I think.  [memorial day]

(Dave M.) o.k., thanks.

(Sysop Denny) Paul, If you are interested  in rel branching, I can
  leave you a msg.

(Paul E) Yes I would be.  I've got this thing, I might as well use it
  but it doensn't help you much with position-independant code.  I thought I
  might work on hiding short routines as basic programs hence the need.

(Phil W) [tee-hee, gonna get Denny going!]

(Sysop Denny) Yes, one of the major failings of the 8085  that is taken care
  of the 6502 and Z80 there is also a way of storing a ml subroutine in  a
  integer variable that works real neat.  It was originally developed by Rick
  Perry and all you need to do is convert your code to data statements.  The
  code must be FULLY relocateable but using the aforementioned technique, it's
  no problem there is also a way of setting up a program  (loader) that
  doesn't require full relocatablity It relocates at loading time and works
  just like any other .CO program

(Phil W) On the latter approach, GRMCVT.100 uses the approach that I've
  come to like best.  See GRMCVT.100, .SRC & .INF in DL2 These approaches are
  especially nice with the Model 100 and its memory structure.

(Paul E) Since the main reason to use ml  is for compact, fast code,  anything
  that has a high overhead seems like a pretty weak solution.

(Phil W) Don't understand "high overhead".  Key thing is the use.  If the
  processing needs m/l due to speed, the short time to load is immaterial But
  maybe I don't know what you mean by "overhead" in the case of GRMCVT, it
  must process all bytes in a txt file in Basic, several minutes for large
  file, in M/L 10 seconds or so to load,2-3 seconds for processing == big
  improvement.

(Paul E) I meant the extra memory used to run the loader  I have a PGD ram as
  you know, maybe I can figure out how MENU accesses the other banks to XFER
  data... and use similar code to get data from other banks saving the need
  for additional files.

(Phil W) I suspect the idea of using a Basic loader makes sense for only small
  files. A 4K CO file would likely need  a loader that would be 15-20K in
  length. a bit long!  re the 0MENU xfr question:  I've thought about that  but
  never discussed it with Peter.  Intriguing.  Would have some pointers and
  hooks to cope with, I suspect.  But since RAM+ of the PCSG RAM will let you
  do that, it should be feasible -- but maybe not with 0MENU.

(Sysop Denny) Anything else Paul?

(Paul E) hmmm  this sounds like a feritle and useful topic to ivestigate  if I
  can find the time, thanks for the ides Now, I'm off to play a brunch gig!

(Phil W) [late for brunch -- in Alaska?]

(Paul E) Denver (grin)

(Sysop Denny) Ok, will leave you an example of Rel branching on the board.

(Phil W) [similar!]  BTW -- given an M/L program it is easy to build a BAsic
  loader with utilities like CO2BA here in the DL's.  Even reloacatable ones.
  but I have not used them.

(Sysop Denny) True. There are several loaders that build a basic program
  around the ML code. Can be a little dicey, I have found.  Well,  Bill, do you
  have any topics to discuss here before I get the slides out?

(Bill H.) ok  I found the Franklin Spelling Ace I was looking for.

(Sysop Denny) Ah, good. Was it from the Franklin Mint?

(Bill H.) No its made by Franklin Computer in New Jersey.  It holds 88,000
  words

(Sysop Denny) (grin) Not quite the same, I guess.

(Phil W) Not quite... those are very nice.  A friend has one at work, and
  they seems pretty capable.  But they are larger than a small dictionary.
  (easier to use and read, tho!).  I have a spelling chacker in my M100
  (Sardine) and  in the Woprdstar Prof Rel. 4 I use in my Toshiba 1100+ so I
  don't know when I would use the Spelling Ace.  But I sure have thought about
  buying one!

(Bill H.) dont you need a disk

(Phil W) nope

(Bill H.) ok  thought you needed a disk to  hold the xtra words etc.

(Phil W) But -- only 7K works without a disk -- seems enough for my uses.

(Bill H.) if its the right 7 K.

(Phil W) Key thing is that is mechanizes the replacement process ...

(Bill H.) is Sardine public or do you have to buy it.

(Phil W) cannot do that with dictionary external to computer.  SARDINE is
  commercial.  see SARDIN.* files in DL13.

(Bill H.) ok  think I did read that one.  want the tech info on the Ace?? ...

(Phil W) I've looked it over and played with one extensively.

(Bill H.) lots of words for 128k rom and 8k ram.

(Sysop Denny) Bill, If you'd like to make up a little review with the tech
  info we'd sure appreciate it.

(Bill H.) just going to say  it uses a NEC V20 for CPU ...

(Phil W) [like in my Zenith Z-150!]

(Bill H.) suposed to be an improved version of the Intel 8088 ...

(Phil W) [yup!]

(Bill H.) then they use compressed format.

(Sysop Denny) Geez, that's pretty hi-tech for a hand-held!

(Bill H.) almost shirt pocket size.

(Phil W) [QWERTY keyboard too!]

(Bill H.) yes  have to keep the fingers ...

(Sysop Denny) Tiny fingers need only apply?

(Bill H.) squeezed together though.

(Phil W) Now if they add an RS-232 and a printer port ...

(Bill H.) its  4X6X 7/8ths at the thickest.

(Phil W) who knows!

(Bill H.) it already  has a three port interface (internally)

(Sysop Denny) Ok, any more guys?

(Phil W) Nope!

(Sysop Denny) ok

(Bill H.) nope....

(Sysop Denny) it looks like we're out of time for this morning's conference.
   So I'll end the formal conference now.  Feel free to stick around and  chat
  further, if you like.  Thanks for coming this morning, we appreciate your
  input.   Bye.

   *** END OF CONFERENCE ***

 List of Participants:

  71266,125   Phil W
  72076,2735  BOB CRAFT
  72276,2454  WAYNE S.
  72300,3072  Bill H.
  72316,647   R Caley
  72527,2365  Paul E
  73327,2262  Dave M.
  73765,605   Larry L
  75046,2325  Jon O
  76347,2367  david p.
  76537,765   BILL B
  76701,40    Sysop Denny