9:00 AM PDT Sunday, July 19, 1987 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Join us next week when we will have Peter Van Heusden, president of PG Designs here to discuss his new RAM expansion product, the Vault. Let's show him a good turnout. (GENE NESTRO) Morning all (Sysop Tony) Good morning, Gene. (GENE NESTRO) Tony...I'd like to thank you & all the others that have helped me the past 3 yrs in my programming. I was really surprized to see 5 of my programs in the "Best of the M100" book. (Sysop Tony) Well, by mutual consensus of the sysops your's must be included in "The Best of". It's not always how well one writes, but in what he has to say. (GENE NESTRO) I agree, It just showed me you don't need any schooling, just some help & the desire to learn. (Sysop Tony) And the "brotherhood" of the other members helps, too. We've got a neat thing going here it's unfortunate that more people don't make use of it. (GENE NESTRO) I think a lot of people are not aware of the wealth of info available to then. (Sysop Tony) Ah well, a lot of folks aren't turned on to the possibilities of telecommunications. And "CompuServe? What's that?" is pretty standard around this area. (Phil) [Hi, "all"!] (GENE NESTRO) Well...lets hear someone else opps! (Sysop Tony) "All" couldn't make it this morning, but we're here. (grin) (GENE NESTRO) hi phil W (Phil) [He's probably in the SIG reading themsgs to "All"] (Sysop Tony) Good point! chuckle. (GENE NESTRO) Is there a program, to your knowledge, that is "Banner/Poster" type that prints in cursive? (Sysop Tony) Not that I've seen.... Just blocks. (GENE NESTRO) Well maybe a project for me (Sysop Tony) Well, if you're going to get into that, Old English would be nice, too. (grin) (Phil) best would be to have the user define/design his own fonts which would then get loaded from a data file. (Sysop Tony) Well, that's a good idea. I think we have a program now that will define characters. It's for the Epson printer, but the technique might be usable. Then there's a "Shape maker" ... (Phil) [Not in big fonts?] (Sysop Tony) program for the Tandy 200 that might be usable. No, not in big fonts but I think the idea can be adapted. (Phil) [new topic ok?] (Sysop Tony) Sure... we're freewheeling today.. Or is that "FreeWheelering"???? (Phil) Booo! Well, on the 200 users and usage as you know there is now a DSKMGR for the 200 which has not (so far) gotten much play. Makes me think a bit. It is likely that 200 users will have bought UR-2 or such, due to lack of suppoort here in the PRN100 genre. And with that they get TS-DOS Even so, TS-DOS is a memory hog (bigger than 5K -- vs. 2.3K for DSKMGR) a big factor on the 200. Still and all I wonder how many 200 users we really have here. Seems like more 600 interest (probably due to sale). (Sysop Tony) Isn't that a kick! The 600 is selling for less than the 200!!! I had forgotten that TS-DOS comes with the 200 UR-2. When I use TS-DOS, I only use the resident portion, which is around 2K. But your point is well taken. Considering DSKMGR.200 as the final product how much time do you think you put into the project of developing it? Considering all the disassembly and new programs you developed to do the work? (Phil) Probalby about 40 hrs to get to DSKMGR.REL for the 100/102, and another 20 to get to DSKMGR.200. Sure would like to do a DSKMGR.KYO, but alas -- not enuff info w/out a total ROM dump. (Sysop Tony) That was a major committment of time for what may well turn out to be an infrequently accessed program. But wait and see, it may pick up. Frequently programs uploaded during the week don't start getting accessed until the following week. You'll have a good indication of how popular it is or isn't going to be, in a couple of weeks. But I wouldn't expect it to "take off" with as much popularity as SPREAD did. (Phil) [tee-hee] (Sysop Tony) Any more on this one, or shall we see what Marc has to say? (Phil) One thing, only. I did it for the fun of doing it, and the 20 hrs is OK. The main product is DSKMGR.REL, which solves some of the m/l compatibility problems folks were having and allows 'Munks CDOS and a TDD file manager to be resident w/out confilct. Done and GA (Sysop Tony) Yes, And the possibility that it can also co-reside with the DVI's DIsk BASIC. ... That was an interesting development, considering how many programs there are in DL9 to "turn off" one DOS, and "turn on" the other. OK On to see what Marc has to say. ga Marc ga (MARC K) OK,I HAVE A QUESTION IS THERE A WAY TO GET MEMORY FOR THE M100(PAST 32K)WITHOUT SPENDING LOTS OF MONEY MOST OF THE EXTENTION BDS ARE RATHER COSTLY (Sysop Tony) Well, not without spending _some_ money. All RAM products like The RAM bank expansions have always been high-priced, in my opinion, but that's the commercial reality of the third-party support world - they gotta make enough to pay for advertising the product. However, there is a file in DL8 called DIY32K.ASC which explains how to add a second bank of 32K inside the computer, yourself. That would be about the least expensive way of doing it. (MARC K) OK..THAT SOUNDS INTERESTING...TNX... (R Caley) Ok, My answer is Not meant to be facetious; I agree with all of Tony's remarks But ONE way to get what you want especially if you are not a hardware person, is to do what I did. I just kept asking around to people for M-100's for sale. I bought a M-100 from guy with 96K (!) for only $200!! (MARC K) I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN.RUSH. (Sysop Tony) Marc... let me give you another piece of "great wisdom". I have always considered a disk drive to be a better investment than additonal RAM. (Ducking!) Because one disk can hold the same amount of data that you can put in 3 or 6 RAM banks, depending on which disk unit you get. Or even 12, in the case of the Chipmunk. With one of the alternate DOS's, you can get set up with a disk drive for about $250, which is less than the RAM bank products, And with Load All/Save ALL capability you can swap whole banks full of data and programs as easily as switching RAM banks. Now I know what Phil is going to say and I will pre-agree; there are some advantages to having lots of RAM ... (R Caley) [he knows phil!] (Sysop Tony) inside the machine. In terms of portability and perhaps convenience. But I think there are relatively few users who need the same sort of convenience Phil does with his frequent traveling. And I think that in most cases the disk drive is a better choice. (Phil) I would not disagree, except ... (Sysop Tony) (We've had this discussion before) (Phil) for the fun of it! Seriously, the main value is not when travelling but when doing software development (right now I'm playing with TDD2 stuff and I have 5 OS's aboard) but not very many do m/l software develpment on the M100 so I agree with Tony, for most users needs. (Sysop Tony) Any more on that, Marc??? ga Marc (MARC K) I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN,BUT ONCE YOU START ADDING MORE BOXES TO A PORTABLE-IT IS NOT QUITE AS PORTABLE I REALIZE THAT YOU CAN UNPLUG A DD,BUT IT'S NOT QUITE THE SAME. (Sysop Tony) OK, but let's analyze how "portable" you really have to be. I hold the opinion that very few users ever have the need to be _completely_ _portable_. With only the computer to work with. The only case that comes to mind is that of an airline traveler, who has only enough space on that tiny fold-down table, to put the computer. Other than that, it seems there is always room to use a disk. Even if you only use it to save or load an entire bank of data/programs you can always disconnect it when finished. You don't have to carry it around in a pocket in case you need it again. And usually, folks carry the computer, (and whatever else) in a briefcase, or bag, or something so it's not as if they can't also stuff in a small disk drive. I've NEVER seen anyone actually typing with the computer in their lap. There's always a table, or bench, or something nearby. So the question is, how "portable" do you really have to be? (MARC K) I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN,BUT IF I NEED DD'S,I'LL USE MY DESK-TOP MACHINE...I DISLIKE DANGLING CABLES ON A PORTABLE ALSO,$250 IS STILL RATHER STEEP FOR MY NEEDS. (Sysop Tony) OK But a disk drive will CHANGE the way you use the computer. I've seen it happen numerous times. (Phil) Agree with all that has been said but expansion RAM will change the way you use the machine even more! My PG Designs 8 bank set-up is like having 6 machines and 2 banks of storage (for utilities) in one box -- and the box is the original 100 case (NO added size). But is is hard to advise any one else on this -- very much a matter of how you use the machine. But I want to correct an impression that the best use of the RAM bank is portability, it is not. I can keep up to six CO files always loaded (have 5 now) without any reconfiguration, and just bounce around from bank to bank as I work. HUGE time saver, even over using a Chipmunk (which I had and did not like so much as the banks of RAM. But I always take a TDD when I travel. (Sysop Tony) I have a similar situation in my Tandy 200; I have an extra RAM bank where I store my frequently used utility programs. It's easier than getting them off disk. But I use it mainly for storage as opposed to "using" them there. ... Of course, as you say a decision has to be based on how one "uses" the computer. And there will always be differences. My comment re "portability of RAM banks" was based on the idea of not having to carry the disk drive, therefore being "more portable". I've never needed that kind of portability. Guess that's why I like the 200 more than the 100. And I guess I've adapted to _not_having_ more than 1 .CO program running in a bank at one time. That may be why I seldom have a cold start. Coming from a background of 1 program/1 file in RAM at a time I prefer that technique of working, rather than having 6 programs and 4 files all in the same bank, and two or three .CO programs competing for space. (Phil) Im done on this topic. (Sysop Tony) OK. Marc, just one more comment... With a little judicious shopping, you should be able to get a disk system operational for about $200. You can get a TDD-2 by mail order for about $170 and Power-Disk, the FIRST alternate DOS, for $39.95. .... Maybe even less. (Phil) [No powr-disk/dos for TDD2, I suspect] (Sysop Tony) Hmmmm.... Phil is probably right. I don't know if they ever upgraded the program for the TDD2. Then the thing to do would be to get a used TDD(1) for even less money. Any more on this subject Marc? (MARC K) I JUST GOT A LAND LINE...HAVE TO GO...THANKS MUCH....BYE (Phil) Current project is to make POWR-DOS boot from the TDD2. Using TD2MON.100 and some other stuff, I find that the sector access mode of the TDD1 and TDD2 ROM's is not the same (a major chnge), tho all file access stuff is the same . That is why PD will not boot with the current loader (PL.BA) which uses directly the ROM sector access protocols. But it looks like I may have to relocate FLOPPY2 to boot PD with the TDD2 -- or relocate Ed's loader (which is 4K+ in length). may be yet another failed project! (Sysop Tony) I doubt it will be a failed project. Good luck. Any more on that? (Phil) Nope -- wanted to dump it in re Powr-Dos and the TDD2. (Sysop Tony) I don't have much to comment on that since I am not a Power-DOS user, and from recent comments on the board it doesn't look like there are very many, anyway. But obviously, Power-DOS has some features and benefits ... (Phil) [5 maybe!] (Sysop Tony) that no other DOS has. Including the file recovery capability from trashed disks. Anyway, if nothing more on that, Ken and Joshua are waiting patiently. (Phil) All done! (Sysop Tony) OK.... ga Ken (Ken G) looking for a alternate Dos with TDD1 and Super Rom Any recommendations? (Sysop Tony) As I recall, Super ROM will load FLOPPY. But none of the others. That is, it has the IPL program in it to load FLOPPY. But it CAN be _used_ ... (Ken G) How about DSKMGR? (Sysop Tony) with others. I don't know if it is compatible with DSKMGR. Have you read the file DISKOS.INF in DL13? (Phil) I believe that the F7 function of SuperROM will load only FLOPPY. but no big deal. Use floppy to load the other OS and you are on your way. DSKMGR is a big improvement over FLOPPY and it is free (the most flexible version is now DSKMGR.REL, DL9, which will load to any address). in the non-freee category, I like Powr-Dos, because it lives in low RAM and you can have another m/l program in high RAM. I use PD for most of my access to disk from a BA or CO program and that is what DSKMGR does NOT have -- 0: support to read/write the disk from a program. (Ken G) Any problem with Super Rom Suffixs, "CT" (Sysop Tony) I don't know, I don't use any of them. (Phil) Just a second. I will try one! (Ken G) Reliability is ve4ry important to me cus I use M100 for work . . (Sysop Tony) Well, you can all look at my slides while Phil is off trying. ----------------- | | | @#@#@#@ | | # ^ ^ # | | -(o)-(o)- | | ( _U_ ) | | \ `-' / | | \___/ | | | ----------------- The Great ynoT (Phil) LOVE IT!!! Just loaded WSPEC.CW with Powr-Dos. (Sysop Tony) Does that answer your question, Ken? I suspect not. (Phil) [Ynot, ynoT?] (Sysop Tony) I suspect that "CT" files are the Lucid spreadsheet files, ... (Phil) No they will ALL work -- remember now; it was a fix -- a problem at first. (Sysop Tony) that are thinly disguised CO files. Don't know WHAT (Phil) [CT - Outliner file] (Sysop Tony) WSPEC.CW is. (Ken G) .CA is Lucid, .CT is Outliner (Phil) [CW=Write+ spec file] (Sysop Tony) (Why do they DO that sort of thing?) Anyway, any more on this subject, Ken? (Phil) [Ynot?] (Ken G) So I'll try DSKMGR.REL then ? (Sysop Tony) OK... I guess that's a no. Joshua is next. ga Joshua (joshua) Back to the RAM vs. disk controversy: Wouldn't you say there is a difference in the problems you get? I've had almost no problems with RAM upgrades, but any tinkering with disk drives, and I get cold starts and disk errors, causing lost files. (Sysop Tony) Well, I don't understand the problems people have like that. I don't have those problems. I don't get cold starts, scrambled files, lost files, I/O errors, jumbled directories, scratched screens, dead batteries, broken keys and all that sort of stuff. I just don't. I don't know what the difference is, cause I use these computers constantly, and am typing on them from morning til 2 or 3 the next morning. What I do see is a lot of people trying to get `this' to work with `that', when `this' was never designed to work with `that', and in fact there is no reasonable reason to try to make `this' work with `that'. You can't run two programs at the same time, so why have them both in RAM??? (Phil) Joshua, what disk drive are you using and what tinkering are you doing? By and large, there have been many more reports of such problems with RAM expansions than the disk drives. I have problems with neither, here. (joshua) Tinkering was too strong a word. I've got a Chipmunk. The munk is for 200 use and I know the 200/munk combo has its problems ... (Phil) [Well, that IS a special case!] (joshua) but turning it on one day and finding full menus while not being able to access anything is a goddam pain!!! The sucker is reading 360K free! (Sysop Tony) Yes, it's unfortunate that the 200/Chipmunk combination never worked as reliably as the 100/Chipmunk did. PCSG did not seem to put as much effort into the 200 as they did the 100 market. But these machines simply have certain limitations. And while many users have pushed them to their limits, some have tried to go beyond those limits, then wonder why they have problems. Such as the ill-advised nicad conversions that were popular a couple years ago. I don't know of anyone doing that now. (joshua) [Why do I feel like a scapegoat?] (Sysop Tony) Oh, Sorry... (Phil) [If the hoof fits...] (Sysop Tony) didn't intend to bite your head off. Just grousing, along with everybody else. (grin) Any more on that subject, or shall we move on to Dana's question? (joshua) Move on! (Sysop Tony) OK.... Dana, you're up. ga Dana (Dana H.) What about that new Booster Pak from traveling software? how does it access all that ram without any bank switching? (Sysop Tony) Yeah, how about that! My guess is that it has a 16-bit processor in the device that can address more memory than a 8-bit computer can. Files may still be limited to 64K but maybe not... don't have all the details on it, myself. I just saw a copy of their new catalog yesterday. It looks impressive, and that will probably be where the portables will get a new lease on life, but again it comes back to the controvery between megaRAM and disk capability. I like the 1200 baud internal modem, though. (Dana H.) I'll stick with my DVI for now. (Phil) Big deal with megaRAM is the ability to download huge files but then there is a problem on what to do with them. Booster pack will have a M/L modem program in ROM, and does support downloading to the RAM disk (R: file name). But then you must be able to do editing or some such with the file! How, I don't know. (Sysop Tony) What looks even more interesting to me is an 8 ROM "pack" that holds the SARDINE+ spelling checker in ROM, plus room for 4 additional ROM's. Combine that with a few extra 32K banks, in the bottom compartment, and it looks like you'd have a very capable machine. I might even get one. (Dana H.) Interesting. Is the Chipmunk still alive and well? (Sysop Tony) Yes and no. You can still get it from PCSG, but there is little support after you get it. Also, the 200 version is not too reliable. The 102 version is "said to be" reliable. .... by PCSG. Grain of Salt time. (Phil) Re the RAM. I really prefer banks, unless you can work with big files Powr-Dos has a paging editor called D-TEXT. Something like that is essential for large megaRAM systems. (Sysop Tony) I've only had a few occassions to work with large files. A 46K disassembly of something or other was one recent case. In that case, I used the 600, which can support up to 64K files which is strange, since it is a 16-bit computer. But I suppose I could have put the file on Chipmunk disk... or maybe even the TDD disk. As Phil implies, we need more disk-based software. (Dana H.) What about the 600, incidently? I've seen it rather deeply discounted at RS lately. (Sysop Tony) Uh.... what about it? (Dana H.) It has an 80C88 but isn't IBM compatible like its competitors. has it found a real home in the market yet? (Sysop Tony) Yeah, that's true. But the fact is it never found a market niche, and is currently being discontinued. A new MS-DOS portable will be released August 3 (or thereabouts). PICO magazine says that only 20,000 of the 600's were made, and that there was no, and there will be no, third party support for it. I believe THAT! It's a Dodo. But some users find it fits their needs, as limited as it is. But they are in the same position early M100 users were, trying to find out how to "stretch" it's capability. Unfortunately the 600 doesn't stretch very far. (Dana H.) Thanks much. gotta go now. so long. (Jeff R) could i hear some thoughts on the prairie power power systems? (Sysop Tony) I'm not really familiar with those, aside from what i've seen in their advertising. However, it doesn't look like there is anything spectacularly new about what they have to offer. And I never thought the price was very good. Ralph Getsla and Denny Thomas have developed the use of Gel-Cell batteries; notably those available from Japan with a funny name, and have good success with them. Denny is here now, and has a file he can refer you to in the DL's. (Sysop Denny) Yes, the price of the Prarie is rather steep. You can "do-it-yourself" for about 75% less if you gather the parts yourself. See GELCEL.TXT in DL8 for a long discussion on the Yuasa battery that you can buy from a variety of vendors. (Sysop Tony) Denny, I'm gonna cut it off there. He didn't stick around for your answer, or maybe got knocked offline. And we're running overtime. So here are the nimble fingers .... (Sysop Denny) harummph! (Sysop Tony) So I'll end the formal conference now. Feel free to stick around and chat further, if you like. Thanks for coming this morning, we appreciate your input. Bye. *** END OF FORMAL CONFERENCE *** List of Participants: 70136,1007 Jeff R 71266,125 Phil 72126,252 O.T.NEW 72216,512 GENE NESTRO 72217,541 joshua 72276,3505 john k 72316,647 R Caley 72527,765 Dana H. 73260,2642 MARC K 73327,2602 KEN GLEASON 73720,2253 KENNETH PETTIT 76701,40 Sysop Denny 76703,4062 Sysop Tony