9:00 AM PDT Sunday, August 9, 1987 (Tom Glovier) HI BOB (Bob Harrison) Hi all!! (Denny) Hi Tony (Denny) Continuing with the messages on the board, about discontinuing the Chipmunk, I talked to Glenn again and he discussed the T102 bus problem again. The tech types that he was talking to were very interested in making the change, but when it got to the marketing dept. they said "Why should we do that? We don't use the bus!" (Sigh) (Sysop Tony) Well I think that's another demo of the prevailing attitude at the Tandy Tower, despite claims to the contrary. It seems that some of the folks down there have lost touch with the folks that buy the products. Perhaps that's why they call it the "Ivory Tower"! (grin) Anyway, what interested me in that message exchange was the fact that PCSG has apparently decided to give up on the Chipmunk. It was certainly obvious that they couldn't compete with 7000 Tandy stores all selling the TDD at a lower price, but they did have the Rolls-Royce of the disk drives. Just didn't seem to know how to market it. Their current ad campaign, comparing the Chipmunk to the TDD was a bit of uninspired thinking, in my opinion. You should never compare your product to the competition that way. But then, it seems as if PCSG never had a handle on the Chipmunk from the beginning, and constantly dropped the ball... or threw it away! I can't imagine that they simply refused to give Holmes Engineering a copy of the source code for the DOS. That just boggles the mind. (Denny) Yes, it does. I think the lack of co-operation with this bus problem was the deciding factor on the pullout. They wouldn't be able to get people to send their computers in to be modified very easily and there would be heavy market resistance to doing so. Maybe when they finally drop it, they'll let loose of the source. (Sysop Tony) Well of course Tandy states "officially" that they have been making every effort to cooperate with third-party suppliers to solve the buss problem. But I can't think of anything they could have done that would be more disruptive to that market than to change the buss. And I get the feeling that somewhere, someone HAD to know it would cause problems. The apparent attempt to release a second version of the 102, with a different buss went from bad to worse. Now you've got two non-compatible versions floating around out there. (Shaking of head...) Just looks like a lot of poor planning. But I'll be sorry to see the Chipmunk go. There is no question it was a better drive for the 100. Too bad it never worked right with the 200, and no viable reports from the 102 users. ({_Rush C.) Is PCSG dropping Chipmunk..and Holmes as well? (Denny) Yes, PCSG is dropping it, as reported to me by the operator there, but Holmes is still interested in selling it but they will have a {)ig problem if they can't get the DOS from PCSG to market it themselves. BTW, The bus problem really only affects devices that use interrupts... the Chipmunk is about the only thing that will be affected. Ram devices will continue to work fine. (Rush C.) Sounds like Holmes did a poor job of setting up their "pre-marital" agreement with PCSG. (Sysop Tony) At the time, Larry Holmes was scrambling, trying to bring the Chipmunk to market. The early version of the DOS just didn't work well enough. He exchanged marketing rights for developing a new DOS. What bothers me about it is that there are virtually no reports of 102 users with Chipmunks although PCSG says it works. They also say the 200 version works, and we have reports from users that it doesn't work very well. Any more on this topic, Rush? Denny? (Denny) no (Rush C.) no (Sysop Tony) OK.... Ron is up next. ga Ron (RON RIVERS) NEW USER WHAT IS BUSS PROBLEM (Sysop Tony) Are you finished with your question, Ron? (RON RIVERS) YEA (Sysop Tony) Please type the letters "ga" when you are finished, so we know you are done. Otherwise, we wait for you to continue. The buss problem is a bit more than we can discuss here, but basically, when they discontinued the 100, and brought out the 102, someone decided it would be a good idea to buffer the buss, and they did so. Unfortunately, that meant that every buss-connected device would no }ilonger work. So you couldn't take your Model 100 peripherals, and attach them to the 102. You have a com{_ment Gerald? ga Gerald (Gerald G) Sort of, I will remain on this topic... The TDD would work with the 100 and 102, wouldn't it? (Sysop Tony) Yes. The TDD is connected to the RS-232 port, and has nothing to do with the system buss. (Bob H.) what's someone who bought a 102 two days ago to do? (Sysop Tony) Bob, I don't see how that will affect your decision at all. There's nothing wrong with the 102. It works fine. It's a good piece of gear. You just will have to be selective in your choice of peripherals, and always make sure that anything you buy to plug into it will work with it, before purchase. (Gerald G) Gee, I am still a novice at this Will Tandy printers work with the new 102? (Sysop Tony) OK first off, the 102 is not "new". It's been out since the first of the year. Certainly Tandy printers will work with it. The Tandy printer line is designed to work with the Tandy computers. .... Not with much of anything else, but certainly with the Tandy computers. That's part of their design philosophy. Just like IBM, they want you to buy not only the computer from them, but all the peripherals and software too. So they build in these little quirks, so that their stuff is compatible, but you may have to bend over backwards to get anything else to work right. (Gerald G) let me continue (Sysop Tony) Does that answer the question, Gerald? (Gerald G) No. I assume that the ms dos tandy line such as the sx1000 will continue ... (Phil) [That was a Yes, Gerald!] (Gerald G) to work with the existing printers? (Sysop Tony) I don't see any reason to dispute your assumption. ... (Gerald G) You are right Phil, that is another sig? (Sysop Tony) Tandy would certainly be stupid to do something to the MS-DOS machines that would prevent them from working with current model printers. Am I missing something here that you are trying to get to? (Gerald G) 'I am looking for a yes no answer now. Did Tandy recently come out with a ms dos laptop? (Sysop Tony) Yes. (Denny) [1400LT] (Sysop Tony) Any more on that, Gerald? (Gerald G) If there are no other questions on the 102 I have some on the 1400Lt. (Sysop Tony) OK.... first off, the 1400LT is not going to be supported on this forum. So unless someone happened to have an interest, you'll get little official support here. It will be supported on the TRS80PRO forum however. (Phil) Gerald, has an interesting question, if I understand it. The Tandy MS-DOS machines are billed as being IBM compatible which would imply a compatible printer interface but we know that with the M100 et al we need to add a linefeed to get to a compatible situation. It may be that with the 1000, 1400LT, et al the same is true or that they truly are IBM compatible in this interface. Good question -- but I would ask it in TANDY PRO Forum where the Tandy DOS machines are all supported. (Sysop Tony) OK - I always thought "IBM compatibble" meant that the computer would run IBM and PC compatible programs. Did not consider that you would need a special printer or printer interface to be able to use the computer. My philosophy would say that would be one more reason NOT to buy an IBM or PC compatible, because they don't seem to be compatible with much of anything else in the market. I don't like a company telling me I have to buy their printer to work with their machine. Theirs may not always be best. (and usually isn't!) (Phil) All (non-Tandy ) compats have IBM printer interface. (Gerald G) More of a question on this topic - Is there any compatibility with the 100 and 102 with any ms dos desk top computer whether Tandy, IBM on IBM clones? (Sysop Tony) Not sure I understand that question. ... (Gerald G) Let me rephrase ... (Sysop Tony) The Tandy portables will not run IBM/compatible software, but they can transfer files to and from. (Gerald G) Thank you, you answered my question that files can be transferred. Thank you (Sysop Tony) OK. By the way, Phil is the one to thank for that. He works in the MS-DOS world, and developed FLTIBM to use on the IBM/compatible end to transfer files in and out. And he has probably researched every IBM-type telecommunications program, so knows the ins and outs of that. But, myself, having come to the personal computer world at the beginning, back in 1978, I don't consider *anything* "compatible" unless it can be plugged into any computer, and work. The various schemes of the manufacturers, to make you buy everything from them, is self-defeating, I think, and is a disservice to the public. But then, that's *my* opinion. Any more on this topic, Gerald? (Gerald G) No, but my only comment is that I am annoyed that Tandy is constantly redesigning its existing line, making them incompatible with the previous versions.....the TRSdos 6 dos system is an example...but I will address that elsewhere. (Sysop Tony) Tandy has a well-documented history of shooting itself in the foot! (Phil) [Progress, Gerald, progress!!] (Sysop Tony) OK.... Any new topic???? (Bob H.) Anyone have any comments on the question of Ultimate Rom II vs. Super Rom [besides the $]? (Sysop Tony) Well, It's generally thought that the UR-2 is superior for word-processing oriented users and that Super ROM is superior for spreadsheeters. -- You have both here this morning, did you have a specific question? (Bob H.) Yes... in regards to maintaining a bar inventory, what should I use to track inventory, that is, daily bottles in and out? (Sysop Tony) Well, UR-2 has a database program, but that seems like it would be a case of overkill just to track an inventory. Seems like it would be best to write up an inventory program just for your application. (Bob H.) Yeah, but I like overkill. If I could get something to do it and enjoy the benefits of everything else so much the better. frankly, I've been doing it by hand for 2 years so even the 102 could be called overkill. But thanks! (Phil) I agree with Tony's comments. Adding (maybe), For spreadsheets, must have Super ROM; none in UR-2. UR-2 has the best word processor/print processor for the M100 S-ROM has the best outliner. Both have Data base programs, the one in UR-2 is more powerful but slower. The one in S-ROM is similar to the data base capabilities and approach of Lotus 1-2-3 (an extension of the spreadsheet system). (Sysop Tony) Bob, you might consider bar-coding everything, and doing it like the big boys do. (grin) (Bob H.) [too much work] (RON RIVERS) Is it true that both ROMs discussed can be easily installed without major surgery. (Sysop Tony) Yep. there's a little trap door in the bottom of your computer, you open it, and there's a socket just waiting for you to plug in one of the ROMs. Just push it in, turn on the computer, issue the CALL to activate the program and it appears on your menu. (RON RIVERS) Are both compatible with 100/102?. (Sysop Tony) Yes. (RON RIVERS) (done) (Sysop Tony) OK Then we're out of topics, and it's getting close to "Slide Time", where I hold up the slides of my last vacation, and describe them to you, ... (Phil) [Oh, oh] (Sysop Tony) Ala Ollie North. (grin) (RON RIVERS) My name is Ron ...alias Sgt. Rivers be careful... (Sysop Tony) Oh oh! ----------------- | | | @#@#@#@ | | # ^ ^ # | | -(o)-(o)- | | ( _U_ ) | | \ `-' / | | \___/ | | | ----------------- The Great ynoT (Phil) Northwest Mounted Police, Ron? Sorry about that!! (RON RIVERS) USMC act/status (Sysop Tony) Shall we talk about the Corps? ??? (RON RIVERS) SERIOUSLY WHAT IS THE POSSIBILITY OF DOWNLOADING DIRECTLY TO TANDY PDD (Sysop Tony) Zip! Zero! Nil! Not a chance. ---- Well, maybe. It is not possible to download direct to the TDD disk. The computer has only one communications chip, and when it is being used for the modem, it cannot also connect to the RS-232 port, where the disk drive is connected. You can only _truly_ download to disk with a drive that is buss connected, like the Chipmunk or D/VI. You can, however "simulate" downloading to disk in a couple of ways. If you have an external modem, install a switch at the RS-232 port, and download a file into RAM, switch back to the modem, and do it again. For other approaches see the 3 DSKTRM files in DL3, several DPUSER and DPTIP files in DL9 and I also recommend the TDDTIP series of files in DL9 (TD2TIP if you have the new TDD-2). (RON RIVERS) WHAT'S UP WITH NEW 102?... (Sysop Tony) "Up" in what sense? (RON RIVERS) DIFFENCE BTWN 102 I BOUGHT LAST YEAR ... (Phil) [Not new!! one year old] (RON RIVERS) AND THE ONE RELEASED THIS WEEK?. (Sysop Tony) I think there is a misconception there... They released a whole new series of computers but not a "new" 102. Depending on when you bought your 102, you may have a buss that can't use certain peripherals. There are two versions floating around. The first ones prevented any buss-connected peripherals from working, if they used the interrupt system. The "new" portable .... if it can be called "portable", the new "laptop", if you can call 11 pounds a "laptop" ... (Phil) [13 pounds!!] (Sysop Tony) is an MS-DOS machine, and is not compatible with any of the current 100/102/200 portables. .... Oh, 13! Must have missed that. (RON RIVERS) ANY POSSIBILITIES FOR HARD FOR 102/100 (Sysop Tony) ????? Hard? You mean hard disk? (RON RIVERS) YES (Sysop Tony) There is a report of one man in the LA area that has a 10 M byte hard disk working on a Model 100. Denny is trying to track him down, but with several million folks there, it isn't the easiest to do. Other than that, no one has expressed an interest in hard disks for portables. Well, I take that back... Commodore was supposedly working on one for the C64 line that doesn't seem to have come to market. It would have had to be "intelligent", like the TDD, with it's own DOS, and there might have been a chance to convert it for the portables. (Phil) Yes, Denny says one is rumored in North Hollywood. And if you can find it, let's look for the Seven Cities of Gold next! Sure would be feasible -- but the interface would have to be RS-232 for it to work with 100, 102 and 200 (or special to each, I guess) Hard disk would be something else, but not quite in keeping with the "personality" of these machines! (Sysop Tony) There are "RAM Disk" devices available now, up to 10 megabytes. But they cost an arm and a leg. I've always been opposed to spending more for RAM or peripherals than I did for the computer. (RON RIVERS) ANY WORD ON NEW LAPTOP MAGAZINE IN RECENT ONLINE TODAY... (Sysop Tony) They are already out of business. One issue. Although some folks got a second issue, and it is rumored that a third issue had been printed. See the file LU.THD in DL13 for some comments. Also, Portable 100 is reportedly back in business, and some say that's the reason Laptop User folded so fast. (RON RIVERS) NO COMMENT... (Bob H.) as to magazines, I have the august issue of Portable 100, it was recently bought by CW Comm so they should be around for at least a while. I've got to run now Any words of advice for a brand new 102 user [not new to computing though] (Sysop Tony) What can one say? That's not the type of thing one can give advice for. Like in buying a new car, "Any words of advice?" ... (Bob H.) hah! (Sysop Tony) Yeah, drive carefully. What? You'll either love it, or hate it. About 3 months down the road you'll know whether you like it enough to keep it. And if you do you'll be a portable fanatic like the rest of us. (Bob H.) Thanks , bye all! (RON RIVERS) LAST QUESTION. DIFFERENCE BTWN PORTABLE 100 MAGAZINE AND PCM ESPECIALLY FOR TANDY USERS. (Sysop Tony) Portable 100 caters to the portables ONLY. It supports primarily the 100/102/200, and maybe a little bit of the 600. We'll see. Also the other Kyocera portables that are similar to the 100's - the NEC, Olivetti M-10, and possibly the Kyotronics-85. With only one issue out it's kind of hard to tell what they are going to support. PCM on the other hand, supports primarily the 1000, 2000, and other desktops, with a little bit thrown in for the portables. (RON RIVERS) HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE? (Sysop Tony) send your name, address, and money to the publisher. (RON RIVERS) who is publisher? (Sysop Tony) Why don't you leave a message on the board with that question. It's kind of inconvenient to look that stuff up for you right now. (RON RIVERS) Sure thanks for all the helpful info only my first time in conference. (Sysop Tony) Well, it's just us folks here now. .... I suggest we close early. (Phil) [Best support for Ky is in DL15] (Sysop Tony) Yes, so far. And probably for all time. The liquidator, despite his plans, doesn't seem to be doing any more for the computer. But then, he only had 1500 units to sell. Maybe when they were gone his interest flagged, or he was on to the next project. (Phil) Well, so has mine. The only one of my new KC-85 files with more than ten downloads is the ROM map! So I will accept requests for KC-85 developments, but otherwise it's hard to know what (if anything) folks want. And the Kyo-85 goes back east at the end of Aug. will do a more deailed and complete map, though. (Sysop Tony) Ten Downloads!!! Why everyone who bought one has downloaded that file! You've done a remarkable job, all in all... all things considered. But it may be that the Kyo folks, after finding little support here, moved on, and don't come back to check. It may also be that only a small percentage of the Kyo buyers are aware of the forum, and what it has to offer. You can't expect all 1500 of them to know about, or subscribe to CompuServe. I tried to get DL to include us in their mailings.... in with the units they shipped, but by the time I got to them, they only had a few units left anyway. (Phil) Well, I figure folks may happen by now and again and find the stuff but I did it for fun, anyway (by the end it was "some fun" time, tho!) And I do encourage the widest distribution of the programs on BBS's etc to find as many as possible But without a built in modem, access will always be more of an effort than with M100. (Sysop Tony) Yes, and while you were doing the conversions, you were also learning - learning enough to become the resident Kyo "expert". (grin) It'll be interesting to see if you get any other contacts about it than from here. In fact, it will be interesting to see if you get any here, too. It has always bothered me that we have so many who download and use stuff without so much as a thank you to the authors. (Phil) Found an interesting Basic incompatibility. With M100 you can kill an open DO file in an BA program, it seems, But in the Kyo that gives an error. So must close it before killing (as in FLIPML.). (Sysop Tony) Same thing with the 200... you have to close a file before killing it. Must have to do with the file pointers. BTW, I was working with an interesting program this week that I thought you would appreciate. It calculated the effective radiated power of a beam antenna given the gain in db, and the output power of a transmitter. The formula was what was interesting. It seems that in antennas, if you have a 3db gain, you double the ERP. (Effective radiated power). So the formula, was ERP = Xmtr Pwr * (2^(Ant gain/3)) (Phil) Puzzled re the 2^ part, since dB's are log to base 10. Am I missing something? (Sysop Tony) As I read it, the ERP doubles as a function of the antenna gain divided by 3, the db figure. Thus, if you start with 5 watts, 3 db gain = 10 watts ERP. 6 db gain = 20 watts ERP, etc. I'll send you a copy of the program to explore. (Phil) OK -- but don't you mean 2*(gain/3), vs 2^(gain/3) ? (Sysop Tony) Well, I'll have to look at the program again, but it seems like it was ^. You may be right however. (Phil) I do this stuff quite a bit for space-ground comm links, but it's all in terms of dBi, dBw, etc -- and seldom deals with absolute gain in terms of watts, etc. so all calcs are add and subtract! (Sysop Tony) Well, it's just us, and it's after 11 am, so let's call this one to a close. See you next week, if not before. *** END OF CONFERENCE *** List of Participants: 70007,775 ED BYRNES 70250,211 PETER 70346,1720 Tom Glovier 71266,125 Phil 72216,512 GENE NESTRO 72217,541 Joshua 72316,647 Rush C. 72517,2574 ROY 72527,2365 Paul E 74425,231 Gerald G 76120,100 RON 76410,153 Bob H. 76701,40 Denny 76703,4062 Sysop Tony