9:00 AM PST Sunday, January 10, 1988 (Ted Paul) Hi Tony (Sysop Tony) Good Morning, Ted. (Ted Paul) Rush Caley Suggested I drop In today (Sysop Tony) Why not. He's usually here, too. (R Caley) hi ted! hi tony q (Ted Paul) Will you be having a conf today? (Sysop Tony) Yes, this is it. (R Caley) Just thought I'd introduce Ted Paul from CoCo Clipboard Magazine he wants to learn how a proper conference is run with q's c's and taking turns. (Sysop Tony) I see. Well, Ted is welcome here any time, although... (R Caley) [he doesn't want to see slides] (Sysop Tony) he'd probably get more useful information in a COCO CO . (heh heh) But we recommend newcomers read the files CONFER.HLP and NEWCO.HLP in DL1 for an overview of the way we do it. ga Rush (R Caley) just wanted to point out that the protocol in CoCo SIG is VERY informal they don't quite have it down like you do here. (Ted Paul) Well we had 37+ in conf. last night and it was a little disorganized. (Sysop Tony) Well, there is a difference between what we consider to be a conference, and what other folks do. In many forums, it's a free-for-all. Anyone talking at any time they please. That makes it hard for folks to follow conversations, and very hard for newcomers to understand what's going on. (R Caley) I've got CRDFIL and CRDFIL.pr1 going very well how is development of CRDFILpr2 and pr3 going? (Sysop Tony) Did you have a comment, Ted? ga Ted (Ted Paul) No, except I am learning my manners all over again, I'll just sit here quietly in the corner and watch, thanks for the chance to observe! (Sysop Tony) OK. The SEN's I sent you were as examples of how we help handle the traffic. They weren't meant to discourage you. OK, Rush, PR3 is done, and is in the DL's. PR2 is much harder mainly because it's difficult to think of all the options folks MIGHT want to use. But it's in process. Remember my naive thinking that it could all be in one program? (grin) PR3 is over 8K(!) just by itself. (R Caley) ok Well I think there are a number of nifty things you can do with CRDFIL if you have imagination I was particularly interested in the person who illustrated how to do a shiiping label I want to learn how to set up a format for a billing going out to customers of a private water company on those perforated cards My client has an m-100, and I thought CRDFIL would be ideal. (Sysop Tony) Sounds like an interesting idea. Although CRDFIL might be a little limited. No billing data updates, etc. But as you say, limited only by the users imagination. ..... I'd like to see more reports on what's being done, to give us ideas of how the program is being used, and how it could be improved. But alas, as usual, There are more downloaders than feedback. Let's see what Ted has. ga Ted (Ted Paul) Thanks Tony, 2 q's.. 1: What is CRDFIL and what does it do and 2: How many people do you normally get on these Sunday Morning Conferences? .. (R Caley) [yikes] (Sysop Tony) Well, CRDFIL is the currently "Hot" program on the forum. It creates and saves a complete screen of data as a "card", which can be displayed, or printed in a number of formats. It's like a box full of 3x5 cards, each card being a single screen display. (Ted Paul) ? (Sysop Tony) Conference attendance varies from week to week; the average at any one time is probably about 10 or a dozen but we have had as many as 50. - Mainly when we have had a guest speaker who was discussing specific topics. (Ted Paul) Rush, is CRDFIL the Julie program for the Mod 100? (R Caley) well, yes and no Both Julie the Mouse and CRDFIL use a one box window to store information and both are (can be) stored on disk But CRDFIL is different in that if it runs as a RAM file, it is extremely fast on search But the principle is the same However, thanks to Tony, CRDFIL has much more spohisticated reporting abilities because selected fields can be printed in any manner Finally, one big difference is that Julie is totally freeform text and has NO field names or set space alloted. (Ted Paul) Thanks Rush, And one of your customers (Julie) needs some help please give Pete Sheldon in Dunkirk a call. I also wonder if Julie could be used with a CoCo RAM disk operation... oh well I must go and thanks to... (R Caley) dont leave! (Ted Paul) everybody for letting me drop in this morning. Take care! <> (R Caley) Ted... (Ted Paul) yes? (R Caley) have Pete Sheldon write or call ME I'll be glad to help him (Ted Paul) Ok! Rush will do! (R Caley) Yes JULIE can easly run in RAM disk (very fast) (Sysop Denny) Rush, CRDFIL is very similar to both of the ROM based programs T-BASE (UR2) and Lucid Data (Super Rom) BUT with one major difference you can have a CRDFIL data file on an external device such as Chipmunk, TDD, Booster Pack, etc. It is the only one that has large file capability. (R Caley) I was not the one with a q on CRDFIL I use CRDFIL every day and I love it!!!. But my external device is the D/VI and it really works great using 80 columns. (Sysop Denny) Yes, I was just making an additional comment. (Sysop Tony) Rush, What do you use it for? Details! ga Rush, tell us all the things you've figured out how to use it for. (R Caley) ok, but probably no one would do some of these things but me As I said before, I am developing one for that water company billing card They have tractor feed cards with perforations; one part would have name etc and the other would have info about the account I wouldn't worry about sophisticated updates all you need is total, paid, balance, and date of last payment. this is a small outfit some of the water systems bill quarterly Another project I am working on is just a CALLS, MAIL, Things to do, Appointment. FILE I put the type of reminder in one field So if I want to see CALLS, I search on that The card would tell me who and what and whether completed Same with appointments and Things to do It'd be nice to do searchs that would allow 2 fields. for examplle Give me CALLS and 01/10/88 This program can also be used like IDEA and project organizers although you cant "hide" certain levels the print program allows for printing selected data. Seperate "screens" could be setup by using a cross reference file...or by placing a secondary reference field in the same card BIG idea now...!!!!! how about this: Allow CRDFIL to access MORE than one file If both are in RAM..(or on disk too I guess) In that way, cross reference data could easily be accessed. (Sysop Tony) Let me discuss some of the points you've raised. Gary Davis reported he found a half dozen applications around office and home in the first week. Others have also mentioned several uses, but you're the first to come up with solid recommendations. Just last night I was thinking of going back and refining the search routine in CRDFIL.BAS; to add the stuff that's in the TIP file. make the search field specific. That would save time. But search on 2 fields might be more than is commonly needed. You and I could get together to get it working in a version for you however. One problem with accessing data from more than one file, is that the TDD, which a bunch of users have, only supports one open file at a time. So you couldn't do comparisons or cross-references. You'd have to have at least one file in RAM. After working on PR3, I'd be afraid that keeping track of file pointers and such, to deal with more than one file would add too{_-smuch code to the program. And if it ever gets into a ROM form, as some have suggested I explore, it would have to be as compact as possible. (R Caley) ok...2 q's 1.) can prg. AS IS find "CALLS 01/10/88" if they are in 2 fields? (Sysop Tony) No. (R Caley) q 2) Can ONE file have 2 screens built that can ~rbe toggled to with the arrow key? (Sysop Tony) Yes, that's a possibility, although the existing program don't have that capability. You'd have to store both sets of field names at the beginning of the file, and read them into two arrays. It would be a whole new program. But I would think that a search on CALL 1/10 or CALL 1/11 would be useful. That way you could store the CALL and date to call in one field. (R Caley) ok yeh, I thought of putting date and Type in one field eg.. CALLS 1/10, APPT. 1/10, TODO 1/10, etc. (Sysop Tony) And I think a good addition would be to make certain fields invisible on output. That could also be your search field. A unique character at the beginning of the field could trigger it. Whatcha think? (R Caley) I'm not sure I under stand "invisible field" If you have any search criteria, I suppose it could call all types from the file that had a "$" or whatever But putting type and date in same field means that you cant sort by date very well. (Sysop Tony) Well, you know that the sort leaves a lot to be desired. But my idea was to have a way to make a field invisible on output. A unique character on input would do it if the program didn't print lines that started with that character. I'd think it would be useful to store some search criteria that would not be displayed on output. Because of it's invisibility, it could be any length. (R Caley) ok...sounds good,,,why don't you play with that idea? I'm better at understanding when I see it go. (Sysop Tony) Let's see what Ron has to say.... ga ron (Ron) In what DL is CRDFIL? (Sysop Tony) The CRDFIL series is in DL4. Use the command S CRDFIL to get a list. (Ron) Thanks (Sysop Tony) Any more on that topic, Rush? (R Caley) no....thanks Tony...I gotta run.. (Sysop Tony) OK See you later (Ron) I am using Lucid Data. Can I use my data templates in CRDFIL? (Sysop Tony) I have no idea. I don't know Lucid, and the CRDFIL program is my own development. I don't know what it is, or is not, compatible with. (Sysop Denny) Unfortunately, both the LD templates and data files are not in a normal text format. They are similar to Lucid and Thought files in that they have lots of nulls in them that make them barf when put into the text editor. (I tried). You would only be able to emulate the template and then transfer the data manually. On the other hand, I have some Chipmunk PBASE files that are going to be converted this morning shouldn't be too difficult. (Ron) LD templates are .DO files though. Does that mean I have to start from scratch? (Sysop Denny) Yes, the data isn't a DO file so you lose it. (Ron) Horrors! (Sysop Tony) It would be a wonder if your LD templates matched the form required by the CRDFIL programs. CRDFIL was designed to be a stand-alone program, Creating it's own files from scratch, and all the in and out programs designed to match the datafiles. It shouldn't be too hard to "recreate" LD files in the CRDFIL format. (Ron) I will try it. Bet on it! (Sysop Tony) Let us know how you do... a CRDFIL.LD tip file, telling how you did it might be useful to some others. (Ron) BTW... if I print my database to RAM, will CRDFIL read them? (Sysop Tony) Again, your database is probably not in the form required by CRDFIL. The first line in the file identifies how many entries are on a card. Your LD template would not have that info. The next group of lines Tell what the screen prompts (datafield names) are, and where they are positioned on the screen. Your LD template is not likely to have that. So I'd say almost assuredly, your LD database can not be directly converted for use with CRDFIL unless you do some manual editing. (Ron) No,no. Just a RAM file of names,addresses,etc. seperated by a CR. (Sysop Denny) Actually, that would do it. Just make sure that each record in the file is on its own line. ... (Sysop Tony) That's still not the form required by the CRDFIL program. Do you understand me when I say your file won't have the template required by CRDFIL? (Ron) Yes (Sysop Denny) You'd have to create the template manually. but that's not a problem if you know what form it's going to take. I am going to do that with my Pbase files this morning I have a 20K address file that is useless right now and with a little massaging, it should work just fine. (Sysop Tony) Denny knows more about it than I do... (Ron) OK. (Sysop Tony) he's obviously using the program for something useful. for me, it was just a weekend programming exercise that has become a major project. Good luck. Any more on this topic, anyone? (Ron) Parkinson's Law, Tony. (Sysop Tony) Is that related to Parkinson's disease? (grin) And just what is "Parkinson's Law"? (Ron) Work expands to fill time. (Sysop Tony) (Ah! I agree!) (Joshua) Having gotten into the conf. late, I was wondering is CRDFIL only for 100/102's? does it duplicate any functions of the 200? (Sysop Tony) Actually, no. We have been discussing CRDFIL variations all morning. It will operate interchangeably on the 100/102 or 200. Datafiles can be moved from machine to machine with the proviso that 200 files may not be displayable on 100/102's because of screen differences. But "duplicate functions".... No, I don't think so. At least I can't think of any. (Joshua) Like using the NOTE prgm, I mean, in the 200? (Sysop Tony) Well, I don't use a NOTE.DO file. Never have. Also don't use ADRESS or SCHEDL. CRDFIL is designed to save and manipulate an entire screen as a "cardful of data" - sort of like a group of 3x5 file cards. The entire card is retrieved whole, and displayed as a complete screen. does that answer your question? (Joshua) yes thanks, I'll have to check it out for comparison. (Sysop Tony) OK... DL4. S CRDFIL will get you a list of all the files. (Ron) Tony, does that mean there is no second "page" as in LD View? (Sysop Tony) No, Ron, there is no "second page", just a single screen as a single card. (Sysop Denny) I was wondering... I take it that you can only find records when in the search mode. Is there any way to find duplicate records while you are entering data? (Sysop Tony) You can only find records when in display mode, either displaying all, or via a search/match. When entering data, you are not in display mode. I see your application, though... (I think) you want to be sure you haven't already got that entry in the file. You can use the CRDFIL.CHK program to see, and if so, delete the duplicate entry manually. Unless the file is on disk... which I haven't addressed yet. haven't developed a way to "edit" files yet. (Sysop Denny) That's exactly what I had in mind. But the major stumbling block is the fact that you'd need more than one file open to be able to edit while you are entering data. A delete function (stand alone) would be helpful for larger-than-ram files. (Sysop Tony) Yes, if you were editing or updating existing data. ... But if you were only adding data to an existing file, since the program does that via an "APPEND", you could open the file for input first, read through it, and determine if there was already a match in the file. If not, append the new data. Delete could be worked out easily for Chipmunk or DVI. Much tougher for TDD's. I'm sure you could work it out for the Chipmunk. But that's another good idea for the programming basket. (Ron) Speaking of TDD's, I tried to backup the utility disk on a new TDD2 and when completed, I couldn't get the computer to boot "floppy" I tried this with 2 diskettes and in both cases a no-go. anybody else experiencing troubles with Backup.BA on the TDD2? (Sysop Tony) Your best bet is to leave a message on the board for Phil Wheeler 71266,125 about that. .... He's providing considerable support for the TDD-2. (Sysop Denny) Ron, is Floppy's filename in lowercase? (Ron) don't remember don't think so. (Sysop Denny) Ok, at least in the case of the TDD1, you can't copy the DOS unless it's in the form: FLOPPY.CO but I would ask Phil about this. (Ron) I load "floppy" with the ORIGINAL utility disk but the backup of the original doesn't. (Sysop Denny) The problem is that most backup programs can't handle ... (Ron) I know FLOPPY.CO=TDD and FLOPPY=TDD2. (Sysop Denny) a filename like "floppy_sys" (which is on the TDD1 dist. disk) The only way I have been able to make an exact copy of a disk is with TS-RANDOM's copy program, which will copy ANY disk, no matter what format it is. Unfortunately, TS states that TS-RANDOM doesn't work with the TDD2. (Sysop Tony) Ron... (Ron) OK (Sysop Tony) Although I hate to suggest this, Suggest you copy FLOPPY.CO onto a cassette, then if the disk is ever damaged, you can always reload FLOPPY from the cassette. I guess that won't work with the TDD-2 version, though, since you never have FLOPPY on the menu. (Sysop Denny) [right] (}i{_Ron) OK My problem is that I couldn't make a clean backup of FLOPPY on a TDD2 using the Nrackup.BA prgrm I have no problem making backups of my utility disk using FLOPPY.CO on my TDD Just wanted to know if anyone else has this problem with a TDD2? (Sysop Tony) Undoubtedly that's the way it was designed. Another "gotcha" from MicroSoft. (Sysop Denny) [more copy protection] (Sysop Tony) And of course, very few people bother to backup system disks. or any other disks, for that matter. Only those who have learned from experience, bother. any more on this topic? (Ron) Tandy tells you to backup the utility disk though, so why copy-protect it? (Sysop Tony) Yes, Tandy has a habit of telling you to do certain things But not how to do it. They did the same thing with the 600. .... But I don't think they copy-protected it; it's just that the backup program was designed to deal with standard BA, DO and CO file extensions. "_sys" is not something it can recognize as a valid file. (Ron) Yup! (Sysop Tony) Personally, I'd get one of the alternate DOS's for the TDD-2 anyway they're much more useful. And if you want to backup FLOPPY_SYS, I'd ... (Ron) I swear by TS-DOS. (Sysop Tony) use the alternate DOS's to try to change the name to something that could be copied then change it back on the new disk. Seems to me there is also a disk directory peek and poke program in DL9. SECTR0.TDD, which is where the directory is stored. That might be usable to change the name. (Ron) The witching hour approacheth anon, methinks! (Sysop Tony) Yeah Two topics today... CRDFIL and copying FLOPPY_SYS. well, here's another fond look back at Christmas. * ^.^ ^. .^ ^: .:.^ ^. .. :.^ ^.. :. .::^ ^ . . . ^ [ ] - Season's Greetings Any final question? (Ron) Bye all! (Sysop Tony) Well, it looks like we're out of time for this morning's conference. So I'll end the formal conference now. Feel free to stick around and chat further, if you like. Thanks for coming this morning, we appreciate your input. Bye. *** END OF FORMAL CONFERENCE *** List of Participants: 70250,211 PETER 70721,1000 JOHN 72000,162 Ray Davey 72167,142 Scott Andersen 72216,512 gene 72217,541 Joshua 72240,21 Ted Paul 72300,3645 Ron 72316,647 R Caley 72407,3224 Marty T 73117,2362 David H. Hawes 73206,457 Jeff 74425,231 Gerald G 76606,3565 Bob 76672,2222 ARNOLD SILVERMAN 76701,40 Sysop Denny 76703,4062 Sysop Tony