10:59:21 AM EDT Sunday, August 3, 1986 (Sysop .^Dave^.) Now then let us get on the way here as most folks know, today is a special conference TOPIC: Lucid/Super ROM with Michael Stanford here from Portable Computer Support Group. Michael, do you have opening remarks? (Michael s) the main opening remark I have is about our $5000.00 contest. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Prime concern of attendees I think, is to get Lucid working as reflected in the message sent you by EasyPlex, but seems like a big announcement you have. (Mike A.,PCSG) I'd like to hear more about the contest, but to get things started Questionwise, let me pass along to you, Michael, the major question I get: How do I do file transfers between Lucid and 1-2-3, etc. I know you have lots more experience in that so please elucidate on Disk+. (Michael s) OK, there are two main ways to get data from Lucid to 123 and others, well three actually: 1. cut and paste with text 2. Visicalc format with Disk+ 3. DIF format with Lucid utilities the first is the simplest, but looses information about formulas, transferring only the information that actually shows on the screen. the second is the simplest and most effective, the latest version of Disk+ transfers disk+ format files to DOS format at the touch of a key, and it automatically recognises a Lucid file and translates it to Visicalc format which all spreadsheets can read. (Mike A.,PCSG) If I could pass along a followup, Bill Templeton of the Danville Tigers wanted me to ask whether we'll offer capability to do analytical graphics. (Michael s) The answer is not in the forseeable future. We don't have anyone working on it right now mainly because this is the first request we have had for it. We used to market a program called Graph+, but Tandy bought it and we can't sell it ourselves any more. It does pie, bar and line graphs. (Sysop .^Dave^.) can you address some of the questions raised by Al Goldman? (Michael s) Dave, I did get two of the communications from Al Goldman, but was locked out of email before i was able to get the entire 9K of questions. His main concern seemed to be with the clarity of the manual concerning the report templates in lucid data. The manual for Lucid data I agree is not the model of clarity that the other parts of the SuperRom manual are. this is because they were written by someone else... namely me. We are kicking around the idea of a Super ROM newsletter, also let me refer you to a series of 6 articles on Lucid DATA currently running in Portable 100, where the author goes into great detail on this very subject. also the purpose of the contest is to gather a collection of good examples of Lucid Data applicatgions, since examples are probably the best way to teach anything computer related. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Don't tell me you didn't get the 9K file? And didn't scream for help!! (Sysop .^Dave^.) I'm sure the members here will find the Portable 100 articles interesting if the publisher ever distributes them. In the mean time, let us see what questions folks have to clarify matters in the meantime. (Rob D) As Mike knows, my and a few others main problem is the report specifier blocks. I'm putting together some applications for our staff but the fact that the blocks move when deleting records (rows) bombs the applications. Any suggestions? (Michael s) If you frequently delete the first few rows, of your spreadsheets, and when deleting lines go down subsequently and insert rows again above the block. Alternatively, never actually remove rows by deleting them, simply blank out that record with the spacebar, and periodically use sort to dump the blank records to the bottom of the spreadsheet. (Rob D) Hmmm. I've tried that myself, but for users who do not have a lot of expertise which such things, these... hands and not use it. I think the SUPER ROM is a groundbreaking product but this is a weak link in my opinion and I was hoping you might go in the direction of protecting some columns out to the right hand side of the... Columns DR through DV. I don't think that would reduce the capability of the spreadsheet by too much. (Michael s) good suggestion, but let me share some of the considerations that went into the design of the ROM. 1. Space in the ROM 2. Time 3. Generality/specialization. the first two points I think don't need explanation. Obviously we could have kept squeezing the code more and more, adding more and more features and delaying the introduction further and further, but the third point is the one that is at issue here. we actually took rows 251 to 254 and gave them special internal functions, making the spreadsheet a little smaller but to put an arbitrary point in the middle of the spreadsheet and not let row deletes go past it would be hard to explain in the manual and would open us to complaints that the program was getting too complicated. Every feature we add has to be explained, and while it makes the program more powerful, it also makes more to assimilate for the user. (Rob D) Yeow! Not in the middle, but the last column. DV. thanks (Moshe) Will we ever see the following enhancements to Lucid? 1. The ability to "freeze" first column and or row like 123's Title command? 2. Ability to enter formulas as in 123 through pointing without the darn Cntrol W requirement? (Michael s) In response to the first point, I agree it would help but unfortunately it would have required a completer redesign to the Lucid screen module, which we simply didn't have time for. Sam uses a technique to get by this problem, however... Simply use the rapid cut and paste facilities of lucid to copy the labels that you want to be frozen, then go the the area where you will be working, insert a row or column and paste in the labels. In response to the second point, we have a difference of design philosophy here, as you know Lucid was modeled very closely on 123, but we made some changes which we felt were improvements. in particular I can't stand the way 123 has two modes for entering formulas, first for initial entry where pointing works then for editing, when you can't point, but have to figure it out before hand. we decided from the start to be both in edit and point mode at all times which helps us towards the 'modeless' user interface which is the holy grail of user friendly program designers. you can use 'wander' whether you are entering a formula for the first time or editing, and you can use the edit keys even when entering a formula for the first time. 123 can't do this. (Moshe) OK, But I kindof disagree with the second answer! (Sysop .^Dave^.) Note that Michael DID say that there was a differnce in philosophy! (TIM B.) Thanks. I agree with Moshe about Title locks. I think it would be great to have them Vert, Horz, and both. I would be willing to pay for an update if that was necessary... (Rob D) [ditto] (Moshe) ditto (TIM B.) I use Spreadsheets for estimating and that function is worth its weight in gold. One of the problems that this would eliminate would be... When I set up the Spreadsheet for an estimate I usually put the text at the beginning - Say A1 to D1, but when I go to E1 to put the $ in and A1 goes off the screen I lose all text and any reference as to where I am in the estimate! It would be nice for the text to stay in empty cells even when you scroll. (Sam R) I would like to comment on this one. I also was frustrated with this situation but I found that the technique that Michael mentioned briefly has been a godsend for me. We have the capability to achieve virtually the same effect as freezing the screen. I simply go to the labels and copy them with the simple block and copy method, then when I am in an area that I can't see the labels, I paste them into an inserted row or column. When I am finished in that area, I just delete that row or column, move to a new area and paste again. mIchael has a comment about another techinique that will accomplish some of the same objectives. (Michael s) The lucid dat forms or views capability was conceived with the end in mind of leaving prompts on the screen permanently because you can have multiple views in the same view file you can effectively see your 'column headings' throughout the spreadsheet. simply make a view template file to show the column headings as the prompts. (TIM B.) I still would like to have the Title locks. I understand what you are saying about the paste & copy, but would you consider including this function as an update in the future? (Mike L.) I'm quite interested in the Super Rom, although there's one very important feature that I need. Is there any possibility of making Super Rom compatible with the D/VI down the road??? (Michael s) In response to Tim's last question, before going on to Mike L's. We certainly don't close the door to improvements to Super ROM. It rather depends on the market response to the M102, and the demand for software for it. About the DVI. Which I guess is related, since it, too is the victim of the whims of the marketplace. The happy fact is that most M100 users recognised that the DVI was not a well conceived product. the idea was great, but the implementation is rather unfortunate. If more had been sold there would have been sufficient demand to justify the expenditure of effort to make Super ROM compatible, but we live under the harsh reality of the bottom line, and the cost of development, which would be considerable would never be covered by the sales, even if every DVI owner bought two copies!! (Mike L.) I understand the harsh realities of the business world although I disagree about the product being ill-conceived other than from the marketing standpoint. It is extremely user compatible and I thought that maybe this ease of compatibility might make it less costly to develop verses all the work that must have gone in to getting the TDD to work with Super Rom. (Michael s) The TDD required virtually no work, since we already had chipmunk compatibility. The big problems with the DVI are the screen and the way it writes files. The file structure of the M100 is horribly limited in conception, the problem being that the only binary format available is the .CO format, which is great as long as you don't want to save or load it. The operating system of the model 100 (and the DVI, but not the TDDor the Chipmunk) requires that binary files be relocated to an 'execute address' before being saved. we get round this with SuperROM by having our own internal save command, which goes directly to the cassette port bypassing the M100 OS. Incidentally we had to redo the entire save code and put it in our own ROM. If you need more detail on this please write and I'll get our customer support people to pen a reply. (Mike L.) Would it be possible to save by the user typing 0: instead of CAS:?? (Michael s) no. (Mike L.) OK, thanks for the info, that's all I needed. (Rob D) Two c's actually, A) On title locking... I agree with Michael that input screens are the way to go. 1) create titles in TEXT separated by commas, 2) copy and paste to LUCID, 3) search and replace TEXT file with :[# ]. This creates a quick input screen ON space in the ROM which is limited. I would hope that any future update of SUPER would include integrated print routines for all applications including pixel plotting. Thanks (Michael s) Great idea Rob. this is the kind of stuff we are hoping our $5000.00 contest will bring forth. We feel that the integration of all the modules by cut and paste is one of the nicest features of Super. About the print routines, this is a good idea too, and one that would certainly have been done if we had rewritten Lucid and Write ROM from scratch for Super. It may well be implemented as a space saver if we ever decide to issue another update to Super. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Rob <= Drive the Freeway to Dallas and pound on Michael! Er, Michael's desk! (Sysop .^Dave^.) Michael ... NOW is the time to make your special announcement about the contest. go man, go! (Sam R) I will comment. About the contest. We are really excited about this one. $2500 first prize, $5000 in total prizes, 18 winners in all. This whole idea is to illustrate to people who don't know some of the phenomenal things that you can do with Super ROM. WE HAVE A list of ideas for those who don't know what to submit, but it is really interesting to hear uses that people have come up with. we will be looking at lots of differect executions of examples so get yours in because if its clever or merely practical it might win something. we are going to make available all of the differect submissiions so that everyone will seee how others are performing interesting things. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Last shot at Lucidity folks! (Dave Sp) Contest question. Are you looking for applicatins only? (Michael s) We are looking for any kind of usage or clever execution. For example in Write ROM you can answer form prompts with Library codes and create very clever things that way. (Dave Sp) That's great for non-tech folks like myself!! (Moshe Shurin) will the submissions to contest be available on compuserve for downloading? (Michael s) Yes. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Well that takes care of THIS conference. Thanks to all for attending and thanks for guesting there Sam/Michael. End of Conference. Period. 1:01:54 PM EDT Sunday, August 3, 1986 User ID Nod Handle ----------- --- ------------ 71006,1534 BTM MELVIN ALEXANDER 71026,1463 MGA Dave Sp 71266,125 TOR PhilW. 72165,1523 WCH FLOYD G GOFF 72275,337 SYR ROB & SCOTT 72276,337 ATM MICHAEL DUFFY 72316,450 QAI KARL 72356,3375 PAR Moshe 72517,2127 SBR Mike L. 72517,712 QCA TIM B. 72667,1325 BAK Jim C. 72737,72 NFK David C 73106,1627 BOO MarkL 73337,745 CGW ANTONE F. REMICH 74066,3130 PNX jackw 74425,231 NYJ Gerald G 75145,655 SCS John M 75515,1757 FWY Rob D 75765,1124 DCQ Mike A., PCSG 75775,1430 QEI Don Z 76067,336 QKA Allaire 76606,3713 SAN BILL 76703,444 DLQ Michael s 76703,446 BMD Sysop .^Dave^.