10:59:08 AM EST Sunday, November 23, 1986 (Sysop .^Dave^.) Now, let us get on with the show! Topic: TS-Random In case some of you missed the bulletins over the past few days and this morning, today the topic is the gnu disk operating system from Traveling Software. We have with us Mark Eppley the PRESIDENT no less, of TSI, and maybe Gordon who is probably the brains behind TS-Random. Okay Mark, 'nuff from me. (TS-Mark) Did everyone have a chance to read the doc on TS-Random we put up last week? (Sysop .^Dave^.) [43 folks did] (TS-Mark) Great!....so here's an opening comment: TS-RANDOM is a true random access disk operating system for the Tandy and Purple Computing disk drive. Unlike other operating systems, TS-RANDOM provides direct access to disk files by record number instead of physical disk sectors. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Do I note that t'is available on cassette OR on a ROM chip (Phil W) [cassette??] (Sysop .^Dave^.) and is it available on TDD disk or ms-dos disk?? (TS-Mark) TS-RANDOM is available in both a TDD disk as well as a plug-in ROM. (Sysop .^Dave^.) For your info, PCSG is present as well as some busy users of Powr-DOS. (Phil W) The implications of Marks's short openning statement are pretty broad. For examplle, it appears possible to have more than one data base on the same disk and work with them in some relational manner, not possible with any of the existing OS's for the TDD. Also, RANDOM has a VERY user friendly and fast recovery capability --- easier and faster than the one with POWER-DOS. (HOWARD LASNIK) Is it compatible with LAPDOS? (TS-Mark) Yes, TS-RANDOM is completely compatible with LAPDOS with one exception: Random access files may appear as up to four different physical disk formats. These formats do not contain your typical file directories like you have on track zero for Floppy.CO and TS-DOS. (Phil W) the file RANDOM.INF mentions both ts-dos and ts-random. I assume they come as a package (?). Could you comment on this and on the relationship between them. What one uses one for and what the other. (TS-Mark) TS-RANDOM is a superset of ts-dos. It contains all of TS-DOS including the files menu as well as the BASIC sequential access. In addition, it contains full Random access, tagging, and disk file recovery among other features. (GENE NESTRO) Price? ROM & Disk (TS-Mark) The price for the disk version is $89.85 and the ROM version is $119.00 and also includes Lapcoder text compression. All existing owners of TS-DOS can upgrade to the disk version for $20 and the ROM version for $49. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Mark, is that Lapcoder from MSI ?? (TS-Mark) Dave - sure is.....we worked with Tom Chadbourne on baking in his compression routine into the ROM version of TS-RANDOM. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Okay, glad to hear some success on his part. (HOWARD LASNIK) Can a text file be edited without being entirely loaded into RAM? (TS-Mark) No, but this is entirely possible for someone to use TS-RANDOM to write his own disk based text editor. (HOWARD LASNIK) How big is TS-Random? (TS-Mark) Go ahead Gordon and grap that one (GORDON S) ABOUT 4000 BYTES. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Ummm, gather that TS-R is on an 8K ROM chip then. (TS-Mark) No, TS-RANDOM uses a full 32K ROM because we have packed much more into it than just TS-RANDOM. The ROM version also includes all of TS-DOS with TEXT file compression (from LAPCODER) and RAM file and disk file recovery routines. Also TS-RANDOM includes a disk copy utility that works with all disk formats. (Phil W) You clearly make use of capabilities of the TDD which are not used by FLOPPY or any of the other OS's, including the latest from the competition. How did you find out so much about how the TDD works? (Gordon s) It took a few months of debuging and but.... we were able to get most of the information from brother. (TS-Mark) We began working with our Japanese contact long before Tandy committed to OEM'ing the TDD. Of course......a good deal of what we learned was the hard debugging way. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Mark, there is one l'il detail that I'd missed or maybe misunderstood until you were talking about the ROM. Do I gather that a user needs to have TS-DOS as well as TS-Random?? (TS-Mark) No....No...... The ROM version as well as the disk version of TS-RANDOM contains BOTH TS-DOS as well as TS-RANDOM. The only difference with the ROM version is that it also contains TEXT compression and RAM file recovery. RAM file recovery is simply invoked by a "CALL 911" after a cold start. (Sysop .^Dave^.) 911??? You have to be kidding!!! (TS-Mark) Nope; we thought it would be easy to remember. (Phil W) You mentioned writing your own word processor a bit ago. One of the "challenges" with a new product with new capabilities is figuring out how to use it. So: 1) Does RANDOM come with any pre-cooked applicatins programs?; 2) What are your thoughts about the NEW things that can be done with TS-RANDOM which the TDD owner can do no other way? (TS-Mark) Phil, here goes in order: 1) TS-RANDOM comes with a program called "FILER.BA" which is a complete Random access database application that uses a "Hashing" technique for assigning record numbers. It can be easily modified for one's own individual needs so one does not have to be a programmer to enjoy the benefits of TS-RANDOM. Now for question #2, Yes, TS-RANDOM opens up many new and exciting applications for the TDD that were not possible before. Over time, TS-RANDOM will demonstrate that it is a landmark product. The possibilities are endless of what Random could allow because of its fast access speed, I think people will now have a different perspective of the TDD. (TS-Mark) I think now is the time to let the cat out of the bag regarding one of Traveling Software's new products that uses the new TS-RANDOM technology. We will be shipping a new product called "SARDINE" before Christmas which is a very FAST spelling checker that uses the TDD. It can process over 12,000 words per minute dircectly from disk! (Sysop .^Dave^.) Wal rot mah sox! (Sysop Tony) (Well Hoo-ray! Somebody finally thinks they can do serious work with a port.) (I want #1, Mark!!!) (TS-Mark) You got it. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Still sounds fishy to me. (TS-Mark) We also have a ROM version of the product that processes over 42,000 words a minute! (Phil W) Hmmmm.that is a new developmemt! so it sound like we uns out here in user land can also write some stuff of our own. Mainly, tho, it is nice to see a product for which there is some support in terms of folow-up applications. BTW -- is it necessary to have TS-RANDOM installed to use SARDINE, or is that built in? (TS-Mark) The disk access code for SARDINE is built-in to save space; it is not necessary to have TS-RANDOM to use SARDINE. (Phil W) ONe more: Mark, how did you get 42000 words into a M100 to test it? (TS-Mark) the 42,000 words per minute is merely a measure of speed. the SARDINE spelling checker uses the 33,000 word Random House American pocket dictionary supplemented by over 7,000 words from a two year study by WANG laboratories. The Sardine dictionary disk contains close to 40,000 words. (Phil W) [WOW!] (TS-Mark) and the ROM contains over 7,00 words. (Leonard E.) gee... any plans to make Sardine available for DVI or Chipmunk? or would it be too difficult? (TS-Mark) Leonard, No. (Reid P) Slightly off topic, but with an expert to hand, are there any major upgrades to UR-II planned soon? (TS-Mark) Reid...glad you asked that one. With the release of SARDINE, Traveling Software will be offering a major upgrade to UR-2 that includes built-in access to the SARDINE spelling checker as well as other new features like a T-Word save menu status feature. All UR-2 owners who order the disk version of SARDINE WILL get the UR-2 upgrade for FREE! (Sysop .^Dave^.) Will PenUltimate III have an improved T-BASE also, ie, along the lines of FILER ??? and will it be UR-II or UR-III ??? (TS-Mark) It will still be UR-2....version 2.0 or something along those lines. We will be announcing a complete detailed list of all new UR-2 features by the third or fourth week of Dec. (Phil W) Three quickies: 1) support to 100/200/NEC as before with ALL products? 2) When will TS-RANDOM be shipped? 3) SARDINE before Chritmas (Mid-Dec, I assume)? (TS-Mark) 1) Yes all three computers 100/102 200 and NEC PC-8201 are supported by TS-RANDOM. We will even be offering an Olivetti M10 version later in the year. 2) TS-RANDOM for all early M100 orders will go out this week since our new manuals just came in Friday. Other versions of TS-RANDOM will begin to be shipped in the following weeks. (Sysop .^Dave^.) [Manual? Gollee! First Class!] (TS-Mark) 3) SARDINE.....first shippments should go out before Christmas on a first in first out basis. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Mark, will UR-II 2.9 have replacement for T-BASE and the outliner. In machine code? (TS-Mark) good question. I probably have announced more that I should of already here; we will make a few more in December and January. stay tuned. You know Traveling Software is committed to delivering the best products possible.... (Phil W) Mark, we've had some discussions here (Leonard especially) on how to pack dictionaries onto a tDD. Looks like you've done quite a job of it to get 30+K onto a 101K TDD disk. Could you say a bit about how you did it (e.g., standard technique?) or is it a proprietary concept? (TS-Mark) well most of it is proprietary although we do use some standard compression concepts......go ahead Gordon without letting to many "cats" out of the bag. (Gordon S) no cats here... (Phil W) [meow!] (Gordon S) the words were in alpha order; any similar letters are taken from the previous word in the list.... (Leonard E.) [aha!] (Sysop Tony) (grin) (Sysop .^Dave^.) [chwikkle, chwikkle] (Gordon S) common letter sequences... est, ing... were given unique symbols (Phil W) Will SARDINE handle plurals, ed's, etc. -- and hyphenated words? (TS-Mark) plurals yes, but hyphenated words no. one of the compromises we had to make for code size. hyphenated words can be handled in a fashion though, just include both segments of a hyphenated word in your auxillary dictionary as separate words and your in business! (Phil W) Well, even some of the "big" ones do not do well with hyphens! Good idea! (Leonard E.) I've got a rather weird application I've been playing with that might be able to use the dict file. is there a way to get a 'sequence number' out of the dict? ie: junk= 12765th word. (I suspect not, but thought I'd ask) (TS-Mark) No, but anything is possible if enough effort is put into it. (BILL ERIKSEN) Does all this mean that mah M600 is no longah !!superiah!!?? (Phil W) [was it ever?] (TS-Mark) If it does what you want it to do then.....it is I guess. (BILL ERIKSEN) I was just teasing. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Akshullee, I've not dispaired on a machine code spelling checker for the Tandy 600. (Sysop Tony) Mark... is it likely that you will ever adapt the spelling checker for the 600? Or will you be providing any support for the 600 at all? (Gordon S) no.... (TS-Mark) I doubt if we will ever release commercial products for the 600. We were close to the development of the ROM code in the 600 with Microsoft. It is quite a chore to port anything to that environment. (Sysop Tony) Mark... I may have missed this. Is SARDINE a stand alone product? Or does it require that you already have TS-DOS, or TS-RANDOM? (TS-Mark) Yes SARDINE is a stand alone product and does not require TS-RANDOM or TS-DOS but SARDINE is fully integrated with the new version of UR-2. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Ummm, you mean SARDINE will work with FLOPPY.CO or DSKMGR.CO? Or Powr-disk or Disk-Power ?? (TS-Mark) Sure it will work with those products; but the actual disk access for spelling is built into the SARDINE product itself. It is fully relocatable so it is compatible with all ML programs. (Gordon S) Sardine does not require any disk operating software to work. (Sysop .^Dave^.) Oh HO! (Sysop Tony) And there is a disk version with 42,000 words, or a ROM version with 7,000, right? (TS-Mark) The ROM version also has the dictionary disk; the dictionary disk contains just under 40,000 words. The 42,000 number is the number of dictionary words per minute that the ROM version can process, ie an effective rate of speed. (Phil W) just wanted to say, Mark, that I'm glad you are not working th '600 issue. We have few enough companies really supporting the true laptops as it is, and none as broadly as TS. It is easy to get distracted, and I'm glad you haven't. (TS-Mark) Now sounds like a good time to make a closing statement. TS is proud to be able to support the true laptops; we have been doing this since early 1983. It is a real pleasure to work with all you on the SIG and all our other customers. We value your comments (both good and bad) !!!! Your comments and advice help us develop and refine better products. Three years ago, who would of thought we would have made the Tandy 100/200 and NEC 8201 do what we are doing with it today??? I would also like to thank all the other vendors that TSI works with; it is generally a real supportive group. Ed Giese at Acroatix has done some excellent code as well as the hardware supporting products from folks like Peter at PG design and Larrry Burg at Purple Computing. I am thankful that TSI has had an opportunity to work together with you all in expanding the capabilities of the Tandy and NEC laptop computers. We intend to keep doing the same for many years to come. Your support has allowed us to do this. THANKS AGAIN! (Sysop .^Dave^.) Thank you Mark, and a big thanks to all that helped with the questions. (TS-Mark) Thank you Dave. 1:06:15 PM EST Sunday, November 23, 1986 User ID Nod Handle ----------- --- ------------ 70126,231 BTM EILEEN TARCAY 70465,203 POR Leonard E. 71036,36 TTO Reid P 71266,125 TOR Phil W 72216,512 RPA GENE NESTRO 72227,2242 RCH HAROLD BRAUTIGAM 72256,2551 TOC Gary D. 72407,3224 SYR Marty T 72527,25 IND EARL 73107,370 SAD Kent 73117,1064 SDC LARRY ALLEN 73117,2740 ANA BILL ERIKSEN 73267,3137 BOL HOWARD LASNIK 75126,1275 FTL BILL TRENT 75765,1124 DCQ Mike A. 76067,314 WPL Walter L 76120,1452 CSG JOE BURGETT 76257,3227 SEA Neil S. 76456,2260 DEQ dave 76466,15 SEA Gordon S [of Traveling Software] 76466,15 SEA TS-Mark [of Traveling Software] 76606,3555 FYN John McGourty 76703,4062 REN Sysop Tony 76703,446 BMD Sysop .^Dave^.