CAS1.THD --- Copyright 1987 by Phil Wheeler An original compilation of Compuserve Model 100 Forum messages for use by Forum members only. There has been recent interest in the possible and feasible uses of cassette recorders in the Model 100 world, now that TDD and Chipmunk are available. This selected set of messages discusses such issues and gives several points of view -- focusing on backup applications and protable use. Is the cassette dead? Probably not. Very long THD, so in two parts : Part 1 of 2 Message range: 152127 to 152385 Dates: 7/8/87 to 7/11/87 Sb: Cassette Recorder Today? Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: ALL Over the past several days Phil Wheeler and I have exchanged messages regarding a number of related topics/products. He suggested I post some of the ideas in a message to ALL for comment. These will then be collected by him and posted as a thread file. The general topic is the cassette recorder today? Related issues are; 1. Does the cassette recorder have a place in the M100 world today? 2. If so, how does it fit in? 3. If so, how can it be effectively used. My comments. The cassette recorder can still serve a useful place given proper software, etc. I am reluctant to carry my disk drive on trips for several reasons (size, risk of damage, etc.). I would like to use the cassette recorder, but the problem for .DO file save/load, but we are all aware of the difficulties therein (speed, reliability, etc.). Being a user of POWR-DOS, I finally decided to try out COPY-C.BA. This is a program which backs up a disk to cassette. It also has a verify function. Phil can elaborate on the technical aspects, but it uses something called a sector write in lieu of a directory. I started thinking about the possibilities. What if you could record to cassette with a program of this type and then load/save to ram or disk. If so, then the answer to my questions 2 would be yes. Use (question) 3 would be as described. Sturdy, reliable file save/load. Carrying this further I looked up a review in Portable 100/200/600 (February 1986, p 47) of a product called XIN/XOUT (or SXIN/SXOUT) by BKI, Inc. According to the review this program actually writes (or wrote if they are not around) a directory of what was on tape. Sounded similar to the menu on the various DOSs today. It allowed for selective saving, killing, loading and so on. Can anyone provide further information on this product? I also understand Traveling Software marketed a somewhat similar product. Again, anyone have any experience with it? Finally, if a hybrid program was developed (COPY-C + XIN/XOUT) would it help make the cassette a viable (although limited) alternative again. I hope this message starts a conversation going on this topic. Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 Added comment. Looks like Woods Martin's PIP.100 intergrates some of the ideas in my msg. A bunch could be stripped out, DVI, LCD, etc. to save size. Verify needed. Disk save via POWR-DOS. Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 Me again. The more I play with PIP.100 the more interesting this gets. Not being much of a programmer though, I'm limited. Seems that if MENUJR was worked into PIP and verify taken from COPY-C and some sort of directory built in that PIP/COPY-C/MENUJR/ETC.BA would be possible. A key would be "verify" as we all know the problems with reliability of tape saves. Hmmmm. Sb: #152149-#Cassette Recorder Today? Fm: Denny Thomas 76701,40 To: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 Fri, Yes, I saw it. I use my cassette only for loading commercial programs that only come on tape to disk. I used the cassette extensively when I first got my computer, when there was only the Chipmunk at $600, and have not so fond memories of keeping track of 40-50 tapes chock full of programs and files. I found the cassette actually pretty reliable. I only had to recover files a few times during that period of intensive use. I have discussed this with Phil a few weeks ago, and he seems to have the most reasonable approach to cassette usage. As an adjunct to an expansion RAM, the casstte starts to make sense. You can store utilities that are needed to reboot the RAM if it crashes, and other programs that are essential for on-the-road use. Unfortunately, this presupposes that you have plunked down the big bucks for the big RAMs! Having 8 banks and a TDD at home and 8 banks + cassette on the road is probably the most powerful, portable system you can get at any price. (emphasis on portable) Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Denny Thomas 76701,40 Agreed on the RAM. I have the PGD expansion and work with 3 banks. May buy even more. However, it would be nice to be able to carry a very portable storage device (cassette recorder) on the road. The problems are well know, but I have been testing Woods PIP.100 and am quite impressed. If it were modified to eliminate the DVI code that alone would make it useful. If some POWR-DOS features were implemented, well.... The possibliites are endless. I would guess that PIP.100 was coded prior to POWR-DOS. If Woods is still active on the SIG, he may be as intrigued as I am. The whole idea may be more interesting than practical, but I have my CCR-82 out and haven't used it for anything more than you, i.e., loading commercial programs. Am I totally off base??? I've thought about your conversation with Phil and agree. An expanded M100 and the cassette recorder do make a powerful package.....if you have appropriate software. I continue to experiment wth PIP.100 and it could be the kernel. However, it is fine for .DOs, but gets confused by .CA, CT, etc. In reality I have had few problems saving .DO files to tape. Bearing that in mind, when you look at something like the CCR-82, it makes great sense. See Jim Seymour's article on page 75 of this month's (Aug '87, vol 6, no 14) PC Magazine for his comments on "what's appropriate" for various situations. Fm: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 To: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 Well, here's my two cents worth... I think the days of tape storage, in the form of cassettes, has passed. The cassette system was never very reliable, but from the early days of micro computers, with the PET, the Model 1, the Altair's, Cromemco's and Digital Group's, cassette was the only thing available. While it's true that software houses continue to distribute software on cassettes, I believe that's because the cassette is a universally available medium, and it's possible to find a machine almost anywhere, and with a little fiddling, get the software loaded. Even in remote areas of the world, you'll find cassette machines and tapes. But we have North Star computers, in it's early incarnation, Kentucky Fried Computers, for developing the 5 1/4 inch floppy disk, and making it the defacto standard of micro computers throughout the world. What was once $6.00 a disk, is now available for as little as 29 cents each. It took about ten years. The 3 1/2 inch disk is now about 3 years old, and is making a similar revolution in the micro world. Cassettes are an entry-level accomodation, much as the Vic-20 and C-64 were to the "Home Computer" market. They were responsible for millions of people being exposed to the computer world, and a rapid adapting to computer tech, for a minimum price. In the early days, a Commodore computer could be purchased for less than a hundred dollars, but the matching disk drive was about $250. Folks HAD to find a cheaper data storage technique. But while their usefullness is limited, their widespread availability will assure that software will be distributed on cassette for many years to come. But no "serious" computer user that I know of would seriously consider use of a cassette for routine, day to day, use. They're just too temperamental. Fm: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 To: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 Unless the Power-DOS disk commands are generic, you propose to limit the program to the users of Power-DOS, as Woods did to the DVI. I have not looked at PIP, but if Woods used the standard disk commands for reading and writing data to the disk, PIP is probably usable by all the disk drives with appropriate DOS's. You might keep in mind that Power-DOS is not a widely distributed program, and that something more generic would be more useful. Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 Again, I agree. I would not consider tape for day to day use. My current lineup is BM PC, and IBM AT AND an M100. The M100 is loaded to the gills. PGD bank, SUPER.ROM, and a TDD. Numerous commercial software packages have been purchased. POWR-DISK, POWR-DOS, X-TEL, TMPC,... I believe I fall into the serious user category. However, I still feel that with appropriate software, tossing a casette in the old bag for travel could be useful. Probably more to us M100 folks than anyone else. AGAIN, that is dependant on having a good software interface. One that could save to tape and transfer to disk seems (modified COPY-C) seems especially interesting. If I was a good enough coder, I believe Woods' PIP.100 could be modified to do that. Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 Very true, however you could also do the same by brining Phil's DOS in the picture couldn't you? That should be widely distributed?? Or another here on the SIG. I use POWR-DOS almost exclusively, but used one(?) off the SIG prior to that. Not being familiar with the other DOS programs, I am not sure what they are capable of. In Woods doc he says PIP does not support the TDD. Perhaps because POWR-DOS et al were not available. Fm: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 To: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 Which DOS is "Phil's DOS"? I was not aware that he had one available. The only DOS available here in the forum data libraries is DSKMGR, with a little over 400 accesses. Which is not really "wide distribution" considering that there are over 250,000 Model 100's in the field, and easily over 50,000 TDD's since we know that was the size of at least one early shipment of TDD's from the Orient. However, DSKMGR has no disk access capability like the commercial DOS's do, it saves files to RAM, and reloads files from disk. ... Not much more than FLOPPY.CO does, which comes with the disk drive. It may be more friendly, but not more capable. The type of DOS that I was referring to is one where you can create, write to, open, and read from, files on disk from a BASIC program. All the commercial DOS's do that, and it's their principle function. The ones I've tested all use the same disk command syntax that the DVI uses, so any program written for the DVI will probably work with the TDD, or TDD-2 with an alternate DOS. Now Power-DOS is another matter. I don't have it, and only know that it is "different" than Power-Disk, which is one of the compatible DOS's of the type I'm talking about. Whether a program written for Power-DOS can be used by other programs is the point I question. I don't know. Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 Back later. Sorry about the ref to Phil's DOS. DSKMGR is what I am referring to. I believe Phil came up with a patch for using it with PGD's expansion banks. By the way, don't get ruffled. Phil asked me to post the question (152127) and see if there was any real interest. That's all, the idea may be more interesting than practical. [smile, candid computer is watching you]! Fm: Peter Tucker 76012,3532 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 Again, sorry about miscrediting DSKMGR to Phil. We are talking about the same type of DOS. However, I am limited in that the only commercial one I have used is POWR-DOS. Seems like alot folks have made contributions of software that supports POWR-DOS. Seems that although POWR-DOS may not be widely distributed, it created alot of interest. Maybe someone on this list can clear up the issue of command syntax differences between the various commerical DOS programs. Again, this whole idea may die a quick death. Watching COPY-C work and then playing with PIP.100 just made me wonder. On PIP, if all of the DVI code was stripped out to save size, the program would be most useful on its on. By the way, a guy of your funcundity and derivation, an extinguised man like you, a veritable guru, really should have POWR-DOS [grin].