M600AC.THD --- Copyright 1987 by Phil Wheeler An original compilation of Compuserve Model 100 Forum messages for use by Forum members only. The Tandy 600 has its detractors (many) and its supporters (less). These messages give both points of view -- though not necessarily balanced. And there is hope here, an indication that machine language programs CAN be developed for the '600. Read on! Message range: 149990 to 150355 Dates: 6/12/87 to 6/16/87 Sb: #Tandy 600 Fm: Fred Gise 70426,360 To: All The other day, I bought the T600 ( I have a 200 ). I am delighted with Radio Shack's 30 day 'no questions' return policy, because I have returned it. It isa miserable computer. Forget the slow drive and the mysterious 3 second delay before it begins. Forget the barely legible 80 column screen with only 13 lines usable. Forget the keyboard which non-apple users might like. The problem is simply that the applications stink. The Word module requires almost 4000 bytes before a single line is typed. Block moves are awkward, requiring moving outside of the program to accomplish. Cursor and screen display are s l ooooo w. The caps lock doesn't 'lock'. The file program is unbelievable opaque. The Telcom package is inexcusable complex compared to the Tandy 200 and even compared to the Talmud. I think it should be allowed to die, a genetic accident. Hope this offends no one. It merely details almost 12 hours of playing around with a machine that ultimately went back to the (poor) dealer. Fm: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 To: Fred Gise 70426,360 I tend to agree, Fred. The big rap is being locked in to Word, et al; you should be able to boot the WP of your choice from a disk. Even the M100/200 have the capability to load your own m/l applications. Fm: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 To: Fred Gise 70426,360 So I gather you didn't like it much, huh? (grin!) I loved the line about complex, as compared to the Talmud! It was a great line! You really know how to turn a phrase... I'd never have thought of that "Caps lock that doesn't lock" phrase. It was great! And of course, you can tell the novice 600 users, from the way the first line of their text is in lower case, while the balance of the line is in all caps.... (guffaw) sORT OF LIKE THIS! -- I always maintained that they should have put an LED in the lock key... even some of the cheapest typewriters do that! Fm: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 yOU MEAN LIKE i DO ON MY pc? iT DOES HAVE ITS ADAVNTAGES! a FEW! Fm: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 To: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 Oh, a 600 "emulator", huh? Fm: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 Yeah -- even will run some 600 Basic programs! Fm: Dave Thomas 70526,1117 To: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 Ah me. Nobody wants to listen. The Tandy 600 also has the capability to load one's own M/L applications. The only missing link is the person with assembly language programming capability and an interest in the Tandy 600. Perhaps you'll bermember that "even the M100/200" did not come equipped with a bunch of M/L application programs. Sumbaudee had to write them. Fm: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 To: Dave Thomas 70526,1117 Well, the issue is not what the hacker can do (if Ihad one I would be writing M/L for it), but what is available to the average user. Naturally, it can be from the vendor (or vendors), or from users, or from a combination of users and vendors (as with the M100). The fact that you can trick the machine with yeoman efforts (no peek or poke in Basic! Some friendly machine for M/L development!), does not make it a good machine. It does lead to a general lack of support, when such measures are needed. Admittedly, there is a checken-and-egg theng here. But NO ONE is going to write a word processor for the M600, and may HAVE been written for the PC types (or even CP/M machines). Open architecture uber alles! M600 was a disaster from Tandy's decison to use MS Works instead of MS-DOS. It was irretrievable. Fm: Ran Talbott 70506,60 To: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 Ah, but what if the M600 _could_ run MS-DOS? I've been cruising the ROMs in the Zenith ZP-150, which I'm told is a close cousin of the M600, with the idea of writing and selling an equivalent of FLOPPY.CO for it. I've found that it not only has a fairly PC-compatible BIOS, it even has warning messages indicating that RAM files will be destroyed by the disk boot process! The ZP-150 was clearly designed to be hooked up to a "base station" that would turn it into a PClone. The Works directory structure is also very similar to DOS'. I wonder if there are similar surprises in the M600? Like Dave, I remember the early days on the M100, when there was no M/L. I got turned off doing M/L programming on the M100 when I discovered the problems of memory management (such as the one I had recently, when XMODEM.CO wiped out FLOPPY, and I had to cold-start the M100 to use my TDD2 again). Fortunately, others persevered. As an _execution_ environment, I'd say the M600 is actually better, because you don't have to fear collisions in RAM or the M100/NEC/Olly/M102/Kyotronics ROM variations. For development, you need to work on a PClone and download, or to have a _lot_ of patience. I think the architecture of the M600 is not quite as closed as it might appear. Works is designed to be extended. The real problem with the ZP-150, which I think also applies to the M600, is lack of documentation from the vendor. Zenith and RS just don't seem to think they need 3rd party vendors. Fm: Ran Talbott 70506,60 To: Dave Thomas 70526,1117 See my reply to Phil's reply to you (Since I'm using ZAPCIS, I don't know what the message # is/will be/has been). I think there might be some real surprises in the M600. Have you used UTILITY.LIB to nose around in the ROMs? I'd love to find out just how close the M600 and ZP-150 really are. Are there any software secrets in the Tech Reference? I don't want to order it sight unseen, but I suspect it might help my ZP-150 efforts. Fm: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 To: Ran Talbott 70506,60 I know where you are coming from, Ran. But the Model 600 is comparably worse than other systems on the market. If someone really wants an MS-DOS laptop, there are excellent ones around -- and with good-sized disk drives and excellent screens. You may be able to make it run MS-DOS software; but I really don't think the most ardent M600 supporter really thinks that (or even you, for that matter). The Model 100/102 were, and still are, unique: I know of no competition in the small-size and easy-to-use category -- even today, in 1987. By contrast, the M600 never really had a time. The response of the marketplace bears that out. And the ZP-150 was an even greater mistake; NO disk drive! I complement you on your efforts. If I had a ZP-150, I'd be interested in adapting FLOPPY, also. It would be an interesting project, an "entertainment" -- much as I would develop software for the Kyo-85 if I had one. But that doesn't mean I could in good conscience recommend the ZP-150, Tandy 600 or the Kyo-85 to anyone who was not FULLY aware of the shortcomings and difficulties involved (e.g., poor software support compared to the other machines in this Forum). Fm: Ran Talbott 70506,60 To: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 You're absolutely right about the M600 being "sub-optimal". Otoh, I just had a chat with someone who's putting a SCSI port on his PCjr so he can add a hard disk. He is willing to undertake a Herculean task to save a few bucks. If the M600 can run MS-DOS, it might also be useful for _some_ people who don't have the budget for the faster/better competitors. It would be appropriate for those who bought the payroll package I once saw offered for the M100. btw, I just had a look in the RS computer catalog, and discovered that the M600 can only expand to 224K. That is, arguably, a killer of a restriction, eeven if the rest of the needed design factors are there. I wonder if the marketing people at Tandy and Zenith have figured out yet where they went wrong. For that matter, I wonder if the people responsible for the TI-99 have (maybe they went to Tandy and Zenith??). I also wonder if the market will be big enough to justify any 3rd party support, even if the documentation were forthcoming. Fm: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 To: Ran Talbott 70506,60 Reportedly, less than 20,000 units were made. Not sold, made! Fm: Dave Thomas 70526,1117 To: Ran Talbott 70506,60 There are probably far more "secrets" in the Reference Manual than t'would be possible for ME to figure out since I speak only Basic. Included in the Manual are 65 pages of "O/S Function Calls", 35 pages of "O/S Database Function Calls", 6 pages on "Applications Programs Under HH O/S", and another 6 pages on "Device Drivers Under HH O/S." These precede 62 pages of "BIOS Specification" with goodies like: INT 56h, Function 0 - Request Printer Entry: AH=0 (function code) Exit: AL=Standard BIOS error code This function called prior to accessing the printer. Its purpose is to mark the printer device as in use. Don't doubt in the least that SUMBAUDEE could write some mighty fine machine code programs if'n armed with the Programming Manual, an 8086 desktop, and assembly language programming expertise. Further, there is an "MS-Works Utilities Disk" available for applications development. Thereon will be found four "Object Files" yclept: HHSIM.EXE, CALC.!00, BLDROM.EXE, and WORD.!30 as well as nine "Data Files" yclept: DEBUG.ROM, HHSIM.SYM, DEBUG.PRM, EXECNV.EXE, HHDEBUG.BAT, HHOS.SYM, DEBUG.GEN, MAKEDBG.BAT and DEBUGENV.SYS. Fm: Phil Wheeler 71266,125 To: Dave Thomas 70526,1117 Not that I would trade my Toshiba for one (grin!), but it would be fun to do some M/L programming for the 600. From your message, the utilities to do so, and the DOS call info, are now available. Alas -- they will probably all sell before the price gets low enough for me to bite! But -would be a fun challenge! Fm: Ran Talbott 70506,60 To: Dave Thomas 70526,1117 Those are, indeed, the secrets I'm looking for. I shall lay hands on one ASAP. Thanks. Fm: Ran Talbott 70506,60 To: Tony Anderson 76703,4062 Eventually, they'll _all_ be sold: it's just a matter of price! 20,000 might be a large enough niche market to make a modest profit if one can find a product that gets a good percentage of it.